Hard Time

[00:00:11] Please note, this podcast contains discussion of murder, crime, and other topics some listeners may find distressing. It may also include adult language, so listener discretion is advised. In the Federation, crime is considered illogical, rare, and beneath the ideals of advanced civilization.

[00:00:41] But in deep space, where warp fields twist reality and justice is filtered through prime directives and political treaties, murder still finds a way. These are the stories of the Space Crime Continuum. Oh, Haley. Thanks for telling everyone. Stop.

[00:01:11] I'll just edit it out. Haley Brickman, here's a podcast. That's so funny. Also, it's such a generic laugh name, too. Like, just... Oh, it's like, also, I've all even said multiple times on the show. I know, it's so true. Oh. How are you? I... So, it turns out, um, I scraped my foot and knees in your pool.

[00:01:42] A little chalky at the bottom there in some spots. It's, uh, it's grippy. It's good. It's good. Your hair is so wavy. Yeah. Like, from being in the pool? Yeah. No, I washed it today, finally, for the first time. And I just didn't blow dry it. I was thinking of you this morning, because I washed my hair this morning, and I was blow drying it. And I didn't have any product in it. And I remembered you talking about, you were like, I air dried my hair, and it's so soft,

[00:02:12] and it's so wavy and pretty. And I was just like, I need to put product in my hair, or else it's just a nightmare. It's falling out in buckets. Like, I'm dying. Well, it's summer. But it looks good, so whatever. Yeah, it looks good. I mean, it still looks thick. I haven't seen any big, huge, you know, bald spots or anything. Perfect. And you look regularly, so thank you. That's how close of friends we are.

[00:02:41] Check me for bald spots, please. We are both a year older from the last time we recorded. Happy birthday month to you. Happy birthday month to us. Yes. And, yeah. And what a month. Oof. Gemini's unite. Taking over the world. Sun. Rain. Sun. Rain. So I look at the rest of the wind. I look at the weather forecast for this week. It looks gorgeous for the whole week. I look again this morning.

[00:03:10] It's going to start raining in like two, three days or something for the rest of the week. Oh. Well, that's... You know what? I'll believe it when I see it. Come on. Yeah. You know what? Don't like the weather? Wait five minutes. Oh. Never heard that one before. Put it on the TV. I hear it. I say it all the time, too. Yeah. It's a classic. And we always say it's a Victoria thing, but it's like everyone says that in whatever city they live. It's true. Yeah. Tulsa. You don't like the weather. Just wait five minutes. Wait five minutes.

[00:03:40] Wait. That's what we say here. We're more common than you think. Bring the world together. It's true. We're not as unique as we'd like to think. No. Anyway, yeah. So like we're old now and with age comes wisdom, but not preparation. I didn't make a whole lot of notes for this. I forgot sections, so I was doing it before I hit record because I like to keep myself feeling slightly panicked like that.

[00:04:09] It's good to never let yourself rest. Yeah. Always be ready. Yeah. But I will give some updates. Today is my last day off of like a little mini staycation, and I drove out to a house near my old place because I bought a couple of Star Trek action figures on Facebook Marketplace for 10 bucks a pop. Well, how about that? So I got Keiko O'Brien because I've never seen that one, so I'm like, I'll get it.

[00:04:36] And I got a Nausikin from TNG, Warrior Wharf. So it's not just a regular wharf, it's Warrior Wharf. And I got, that's three. Which one's the fourth one? Oh, it was a female Klingon from Generations, the movie. Oh, yeah. Okay, cool. Very exciting.

[00:05:05] And then I have been watching, and I have one episode left, which I'm going to watch after this, of the newest season of the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders. Oh, yeah. I love it. I love it. America's Sweethearts. I don't wish fame on anybody. Like, maybe my worst enemy. Because it is such a bitch. Like, it's different now. When an asshole friend are just like, let's just comment.

[00:05:35] Yeah, I don't get it. Whatever happened to, if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all. Keep it internal. And tell your best friend. Yeah, exactly. Keep it locked up. Like, it's just, it's rude and disrespectful. And like, would you say that if it was showing your true face and your, you know, your loved ones were standing there? Like, you just don't behave that way. Like, it's just little digs at people.

[00:06:04] I've seen, like, some of the TikTok creators that I, totally, that I follow. They're like, I need to take, I'm taking a break just because of some negativity online. And I'm like, but these are all strangers. And like, huh? Like, what? That's what one of the girls touched on in this most recent episode where she was debating if she was going to come back for another season because the online hate's been so bad. And she was just like, this was my dream. I love doing this.

[00:06:34] This job, I've only been able to do it for another year or two anyways. Why do I care? Like, why am I going to let them ruin it for me? And that's literally what you have to think. Like, you know, and then they tell the girls before they go out there, this is the first game of the season. And for some of you who are newcomers, this is your first ever football game. Like, enjoy every moment. Like, you've worked. It's like the Olympics. It's like, don't go to the Olympics and then complain that you don't like the food in the place that you're staying. Like, you are, you made it. Like, this is what you've worked for. This is your dream.

[00:07:03] Don't let the haters, like, they're just jealous. They're just couch commandos who have no fucking dreams of their own. And they're too scared to pursue them. And they want to hate on beautiful, talented women or men because male athletes get it just as bad. You do. And it's just absolutely, this is the human race, man. It's just a bunch of fucking assholes. Yeah. I don't understand. And it tracks into Star Trek. It tracks into fandom.

[00:07:32] It's like the people online that just are like, I hate anything from the Kurtzman era or I hate the new Starfleet. This one is too woke. And it's like, if you don't like it because it's woke, then don't watch it. Yeah, exactly. You don't have to shout it out on your little Twitter page or your little TikTok or whatever. Like, no one cares because some people love it. Some people finally see representation that they haven't seen before. And some people, you know, oh, I don't like it because it's what? Like, then don't. And don't watch. Yeah, don't watch. Go back and watch the original series again if that's what you love.

[00:08:03] Exactly. Ask chat GPT to create you new episodes and then read them in your spare time and make, like, just create something then. Like, fuck off. I just hate it. Totally. Totally. Because it gets to the actors and people can't separate characters from actors. And then the actors get off social media and it ruins it for the rest of us. And again, to the celebrity-ism of it, too. Like, it's just, it's ruined it for you and me because we are cool regular people. Quote, unquote. Quote, unquote.

[00:08:34] Normal. We are two regular people. Hayley. But, like, we've all been painted with the same crazy brush. And, like, realistically, these actors want to hang out with us. When they get the chance, they don't want us to go. Remember Robert Picardo? I have a letter for you, Michael. Fuck. Not normal. We are regular people. Anyway. We are regular people. We are regular people. I swear to God.

[00:09:03] It's important that he gets this. And now it feels even weirder, like, to go to a convention and be, like, trying not to gush over someone. And it's, like, you know, I don't know. Like, one of the actors, like, let's say the new guy playing Scotty in Stranger World. And I'm just, like, he's, like, 33 and I'm 46. And, like, you're such a big fan. Like, oh, God. Like, don't. Like, that's, like, the last thing I want to have it come across as.

[00:09:31] Like, he's, like, milk. Who's mom are you? Yeah. Luce in the convention. But it's also, like, you're a handsome man. I appreciate it. Like, I don't know. It's just so funny. It's so funny being this age and still having the same emotions for a show that I did when I was 10. Or it's, like, I want to be all our best friends. And I want to be my boyfriend. And, like, I just love it. And I get so excited. And I can barely even, like, when I met Ethan Beck. He's, like, what's your name? I'm, like, Sarah.

[00:10:01] He's, like, sorry, what? And I'm, like, Sarah. And then he kind of, like, glanced behind me because you could see my husband was standing there just kind of, like, playing on his phone dead to the world. And he's just, like, I rambled on about going to a hockey game. And I'm, like, he doesn't care. He just wants to sign and get the 40 bucks from you. And, like, I don't know. Like, I just verbal diarrhea happens. And stutter and the lisp and all that headgear I wore for nothing now comes out when I get nervous or drink too much.

[00:10:31] So funny. Anyway. So I've kind of, like, started getting back into social media after I talk about what a toxic sense will. So I've got nine accounts. You've got to follow me on all. Fuck everyone. Make sure you like me. Slipping to my DM. Subscribe button. Hashtag keep on trucking. But, like, I have my Instagram is my Van Island Crafts. Yeah. Because it's always been where I posted all my craft stuff.

[00:11:01] And, like, I haven't really been doing that much of it. Or else it was, like, I haven't taken any new pictures. Like, whatever. So it'll just be, like, basically, I'm doing a craft show. Two followers that are local. The rest are all probably porn bots or whatever. But I started to, like, post more stuff on Star Trek stuff. And I was, like, I'm just going to start following. Like, just doom scrolling. But I'm just hitting follow, follow, follow, follow. Anybody who had Star Trek. Anybody who was a fan artist. Anybody who did crafts or whatever. And so, either way, I've got, like, over 500 followers now on this page. A bunch of just really cool down-to-earth people.

[00:11:29] And Top Trek and stuff like that. So. That's rad. Yeah. Very cool. Very cool. What's new with you? Any injuries? Yeah. I had one injury. Just one? Well. Well, yeah. And the scrapes. Like, classic pool experience. I was, like, what? Yeah. Anyway. It's. What a fun time. It was super fun. Um. Yeah. No.

[00:11:56] Have you heard of a game called Trackball? It's like. Well, I can go get them. But they're downstairs. So. Remember those games back in the day when we were kids. And there were, like, big scoops. And you had a little ball in there. And you'd, like. Like a banana almost? Yeah. Like a banana. So. It's. Those are. It's like that. Only, like, a little bigger. And then. And inside. There's actually a track. That the ball. The ball can, like. Spin in.

[00:12:27] Or, like. There's a way that you can actually, like. Throw it. So that the ball does something cool. When you. Oh, like a wrist work shot. Yeah. Like. How big is the ball? Like. Ping ball? No. Bigger. Like. Smaller than. Like. Baseball? Smaller than a softball. Way smaller. But bigger than, like, a hockey ball. Like a tennis ball? A hockey ball? It's a puck. I'm talking to, like. Like field hockey. Or, like. Lacrosse. Or, like. Or street hockey. Like, with the ball. I know.

[00:12:57] Fuck. Um. Anyway. Yeah. Is it solid? No. Yeah. Okay. No. It is. But it's hollow. No. It's solid in that it doesn't have holes in it. Like. Yeah. Yeah. But it's hollow. So, it's not heavy. Describe a ball. I like sports. Go local sports team. So. It's a nice evening outside. Right? These days. It's late. It's.

[00:13:26] It's light late. And I'm like. Hey. Let's go play trackball. At the park down the street. And we're like six minutes in. Having a great time. And. You normally play by doing like an overhand. But you can also do underhand. But you have to kind of. Anyway. It's. It's a whole thing. I guess I like. Twisted my knee. Like a. Idiot. Because I can. Move all the. I can bend all the ways. It doesn't hurt until. Like. Yeah. Anyway.

[00:13:56] And then I was like. Oh shit. That hurts. And I was like. Ah. Probably. We'll just call it. And then it just got worse. Um. But that's okay. It's. It's something. It's not getting worse. Yeah. But it. Like. It hurt all weekend. And like. Trying to do Tai Chi. Is not possible. But the pool was great. I just couldn't play it as much. Yeah. I couldn't like. Lunge for the ball. Because I can't like. I couldn't like. Push off. I did.

[00:14:26] And now my whole right side is sore. So you didn't miss anything. Like. What was I thinking? I'm like. I missed the ball. Drop the ball. Drop it. It was fun. It was super fun. It was fun. Pools were fun. Yeah. We got like a serious episode today. Um. Before we get into this serious episode. Let's talk about fansets. Hello listeners and friends. Pins. We'd like to take a hot minute to thank our friends at Fansets.

[00:14:56] As you may or may not know. They are an incredible team of Trek fans that make and sell really cool pins. If you go over to the website fansets.com. I know you won't be disappointed in what you see. They have pins that span the whole Trek universe and are constantly releasing new pins all the time. So head on over to fansets.com. Have a look around. And don't forget. If you want to save yourself a couple of bucks. Use our special code at checkout. Which is TREK GEKS. All caps. One word.

[00:15:25] And you'll get 10% off your order. And for those of you in the U.S. of A. Spend over $30 and you will get free shipping. Fansets. Our pins have character. And we're back. Fansets. Um. I just went to your website. You want to hear some of the new stuff they got? Hayley? Yeah, I do. They have made a Starfleet Academy series logo pin. Okay. And they're big on the Delta.

[00:15:54] From the convention that we went to? That Starfleet Academy? No, the new TV show. Starfleet Academy. Yeah, I know. Good one. Caught me off guard. And I think a lot of Delta pins. So I guess they've made some Delta pins from the movie Star Trek Beyond. Oh, cool. And there's Captain Proton's rocket ship from Voyager. Very nice. And then I'm guessing it's from Starfleet Academy. Because I didn't see the whole series. But they have Star Trek War College cadet pins. And I was like, oh, when's the War College? And where do I sign up?

[00:16:23] So very cool. Thanks, Ben. Very cool. Thank you. Yeah. They make good stuff. I've noticed, too, that they really upped their social media game. And I hope they're not getting any hate. Because they do nothing but good. But I've noticed people have been doing little videos and stuff about what's coming. And all that kind of stuff. Which I think is super cute. Yay. Yeah. Okay. So space crime continuum here. A little serious episode here.

[00:16:55] Just straight up. This episode covers things like PTSD and suicidal thoughts and things like that. So just take care of yourself as you're listening. And if this isn't the episode then for you, then you can just, you know, don't listen. Wait till the next one. And we will try to make it better. But, Hayley, I know you didn't get a chance to watch the whole episode. But you did a little bit of a look into it, right? So you're kind of somewhat aware of this? Yeah. So it's from Deep Space Nine. Yes.

[00:17:23] I understand the, and this is like, what are the odds that there's another Miles O'Brien? Just like on Tangy. And even looks like Miles O'Brien. I'm just kidding. It's the same Miles O'Brien. It is. Anyway, this is, yeah, I, without watching this episode, I did look into it and I read the Wikipedia about it. And I had to like do some more digging to like understand what was real and what was not real. Right.

[00:17:52] I still have questions. Yeah. Then I will give you a synopsis of the episode. This is season four, episode 19 called Hard Time. Okay. Is it hard? Is it solid? Is it, is it hollow in the middle? It's solid, but it's hollow. No. Okay. It doesn't have holes. It doesn't have holes. Just wormholes. Yeah. So this is an O'Brien, Miles O'Brien must suffer episode again. He really seems to kind of, there's a lot of that.

[00:18:20] And I haven't, I haven't watched the documentary What We Left Behind. It's the big DS9 documentary. Apparently it's wonderful. But Iris Stephen Bear who did the show is kind of like, yeah, it kind of became a theme that every season we had to find a new way to make Miles O'Brien suffer. So I guess this was the season four. And yeah, it was a good rewatch. I love, I love Miles O'Brien. I love Kalmini. He is my star sleep husband and kind of a spirit animal. He's just a grumpy old curmudgeon. And I can like totally relate to that.

[00:18:49] Like just another day at work. Got to go home and deal with the missus. Like, Oh, what's, what's it going to be today? Do, do, do, do. And this is the worst kind of day. Cause he woke up and the episode opens where like, it's a prison cell. Like you just see somebody with like mad wild hair, like just like drawing in the sand. It's like an old guy. Um, and it's like, it looks like a dungeon and you're just kind of like, okay, who's this? And it's Miles O'Brien.

[00:19:18] Uh, and somebody walks through the front door and is like, okay, you're free to go. And he's like, what? Uh, and he's like all aged and he's like, go where? And so, you know, it's been 20 years. And then you're like, and there's the opening sequence and you're like, what, what, what's going on? Like, so, so we're led to believe Miles O'Brien just did 20 years, a hard time in prison.

[00:19:42] And he looks like he did 20 years, a hard time, but then suddenly he wakes up and Kira is standing over him and he's completely disoriented, obviously. And he's like, well, you haven't aged a day. You look great. And he's like, it's been 20 years. No, it's just been a couple of hours. So here's the twist. O'Brien, he was arrested on an alien world after being falsely accused of espionage.

[00:20:09] And instead of incarcerating prisoners for decades, as they would, you know, here on planet Earth, what they do is they implant the memories of a prison sentence directly into a person's mind. Their justice system just considers it to be a more efficient alternative to physical imprisonment. Unfortunately, though, in Miles's case, DS9 wasn't able to intervene before the procedure was carried out. Um, so when O'Brien didn't come to the station or so when he does return to the station, he's

[00:20:38] carrying 20 years of memories that technically never happened. And this is where the episode gets good. He's obviously overwhelmed by everything around him. He never expected to see the station again. And now even familiar corridors seem like beautiful and surreal. But while everyone else sees the same chief O'Brien who left for work that morning, they quickly realize that that is not who has come back. Cisco sits down with Keiko and explains the reality of the situation. They don't know what to expect because this isn't the same man anymore.

[00:21:08] He may have physically been gone for only a few hours, but mentally he's lived through 20 years of trauma. Dr. Bashir begins evaluating him and asks the important question, how did you survive being alone for 20 years? And that's when O'Brien says that he wasn't alone. Or Brian says that he was, O'Brien says he was alone, but he was lying. So over the course of his imprisonment, he developed a deep friendship with another prisoner. They survived together for nearly two decades scavenging for food, hiding scraps to survive,

[00:21:37] telling each other stories and keeping each other sane in an environment designed to break them. It became his closest companion, his entire world, basically. But there is a terrible reason O'Brien doesn't want to talk about him. Near the end of their imprisonment, the friend died. What we eventually learn is that O'Brien was responsible for that death. Driven by desperation and starvation, a confrontation over food ended in tragedy.

[00:22:04] It wasn't cold-blooded murder, but neither was it a simple accident. In O'Brien's mind, he killed the one person who mattered most to him in that prison, and the guilt is consuming him. So as the episode progresses, we watch him try to return to a normal life. He struggles to remember routine aspects of his job. He's irritable, angry, and constantly on edge. He lashes out at people around him, and at one point, he nearly attacks Quark for taking too long to serve him a drink.

[00:22:32] He skips his therapy sessions. He refuses help. Typical men, even 700 years in the manger. I don't want to go to a doctor. I don't want to talk about my feelings. And then it gets worse. He snaps at his daughter, Molly. And for a brief moment, it looked like he was almost going to strike her. Horrified by his own reaction, he flees. And then alone in a cargo bay, he's haunted by visions of his dead friend.

[00:22:58] He's been seeing him in distances and stuff, and he's trapped between the reality and memory. He's unable to separate the life he had from the life that he actually has. And eventually, he retrieves a phaser and prepares to end his life. It's the most painful scene in the series, in my opinion. But thankfully, Bashir finds him before it's too late, and what follows is one of the strongest conversations Steve Space Nine has ever produced, in my opinion. O'Brien finally confesses everything.

[00:23:26] The friend he lost, the guilt he carries, and the self-hatred that has been eating at him ever since. And Bashir gives him exactly what he needs to hear. He reminds O'Brien that he is a good man. The purpose of the punishment was to break him psychologically. Maybe for a moment it succeeded, but if O'Brien takes his own life now, then the people who did this to him truly win. And for the first time, O'Brien allows himself to accept help. So this episode ends on a hopeful but realistic note. He's not.

[00:23:56] He's going to go to therapy. He's receiving treatment. The nightmares and hallucinations won't disappear overnight. Neither will the trauma. Recovery isn't presented as something simple or immediate. Instead, it's the message that healing happens one day at a time. And that's why this episode remains so powerful. On the surface, it's just a science fiction story about implanted memories, but underneath it's an examination of trauma, guilt, depression, PTSD, and suicidal thoughts.

[00:24:23] It reminds us of the importance of reaching out for help and talking honestly about what we're carrying. It also raises uncomfortable questions about punishment and incarceration. The episode isn't necessarily arguing that there are easy answers, but it does force us to think about what prison is supposed to accomplish. Is the goal rehabilitation, deterrence, or revenge? Oof. Yeah.

[00:24:51] Like episodes that make you kind of forget that you're watching Star Trek for a sec. You know what I mean? Like, it's kind of like a... It's like your inner light love for the inner light. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And one of the women in that episode of Inner Light is a guest star on this episode. As it should be. He has the touch of gold. I'm going to be on an episode. And ooh, it's a gooder. Yeah, no kidding. You have some questions?

[00:25:20] Yeah, well, many questions. One, the fellow inmate that he killed, was that a person in his mind, like implanted in the memory? Or was that someone he shared with, shared a cell with for two hours or whatever? Or... It was an implanted memory. Because I think that they try to design a prison life experience unique to each person.

[00:25:47] And so, yeah, it wasn't a real person. It was just the memory of a real person. And in this prison, like they would... There was no consistency for how they would feed them. And so they would always try to hide food, just to make sure that they had food. And then O'Brien, when the other... When his cellmate was sleeping, he found that he'd been hiding stuff from him. And he attacked him. But the attack turned into an accidental death. And then he realized that he'd been hoarding it through the two of them.

[00:26:17] Making it for both of them. Like... Oh, right? Like the... Yes. Yeah. Um... And then, like, your question about what is the goal of the prison? Because to me, like, his crime was espionage. And it doesn't sound like he got a fair trial or a trial at all. No. Um... Like, he was wrongly accused. Yeah. But, like... I don't know enough about the harms of spying.

[00:26:46] From what I understand, it's very cool. Um... Like, that's irreparable damage? Like... Yeah. Even with whatever therapy and treatment Bashir prescribes... And, you know, O'Brien will be fine, ultimately, because he's just a character. It's... It's... Like... Like... This happens in real life. Also. And, um... I think the goal is revenge. I think...

[00:27:16] It's... You've been bad. And you should pay for it forever. And I know that this is, like, not a podcast about, like, bail reform and all those kinds of topics. But they are talking about, like... Or the prime minister has tabled or there is legislation. I need to do more research, obviously. But for certain types of crimes, that bail will not be granted.

[00:27:41] And it includes certain types of assaults and breaking and entering things. Um... But also... It's before they're proven guilty. I mean, it's... In many cases, it'll be, like, obvious or whatever. But it's just, like... That's kind of against our... Order rights. Yeah. I mean...

[00:28:08] I remember in criminal justice in college that this topic came up quite a bit about... The corrections system and what's working... What doesn't work. Yeah. And all that. Exactly. And, like, my own opinion on the matter, I think, differs from a lot of people's opinion. But I really think that, like, for anybody who commits a petty crime... Whether it's theft, vandalism, minor drug offenses...

[00:28:37] Even, like, certain types of assault, like a bar fight gone wrong. Or, like... These are people that are more than likely down on their fucking luck. And they had to steal for a reason. Or they're in with the wrong crowd. Or they were raised in a bad environment. And these are people that can be rehabilitated. Through a program that's actually going to be, like, therapy. To talk about why the fuck did this happen? And how can we get out of it? What happened to you? Like, therapy, therapy, therapy. Job skills.

[00:29:07] Helping. Like, just help. Like, people just need help. Help. When it comes to... I don't know what the answer is. I don't know if there's... I don't know if there's people that can be... I think there's people out there that cannot be rehabilitated. I think there's people that are just born evil. And I don't know what the answer is. If the taxpayer's money should go into putting them in a cozy place or a non-cozy place. There's going to be people that I'm going to say, I want my revenge. And I wasn't even a victim. But I don't like what they did.

[00:29:35] And so that's just my own warped view of it. And it's not right. It's not wrong. It's just my opinion. But I think that the majority of people that are put into the prison system are not learning anything unless they somehow get caught up in a good system where they have a good... There's good people working there and they get a second shot. Because, like, thinking Oz. How much of the series Oz did you watch through? Did you watch a couple episodes here and there? I didn't watch any. I only have seen a still from what I Googled that one time.

[00:30:06] So there's this character, like, in episode one. Tobias Beecher. And he's a lawyer who's kind of like an alcoholic. Married with a kid or a kid coming or I can't remember. But he's just like... He's kind of just like a douchebag lawyer. And he was driving drunk. And he hit a little girl and killed her. So not good. Not good at all. And the judge decides, like, I'm going to make a real example out of you. Because he goes in all cocky thinking, like, I'm a lawyer. Like, you know, it's going to be... No. You're going hard time.

[00:30:36] You're going to Oz. Oz won't state penitentiary. And, yeah. Like, he's thrown into the deep end of, like, the scariest prison. And brutalized from day one. Like, J.K. Simmons' character just makes him his bitch. And he just... And he's in the series. And he commits murder. He just... He becomes a product of the system. And it's like... And that's what happens to these people. Is that there's... They joke. Don't drop the soap. That's not fucking funny. You're talking about rape. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[00:31:04] No one deserves to live in fear of that on a daily basis. Whether you're in prison for being a bad person or not. Like, it's not funny. It's not... It's not okay. And people have to, like... I gotta join a gang if I want to survive. Like, that's... Maybe it's not that bad. But there's a lot of reality shows out there about, like, world's toughest prison. And I'm like, I think it is that bad. And, like, the movies do have some of it right. And it's scary. And I'm like, how is that benefiting? Like, all it's doing is it's propping up a place so people can have jobs in a small town.

[00:31:34] Because the mill closed. So build a mega prison. And then suddenly we can hire 20,000 people. And it's like... It's politics. It's money. It's... Oh, like... It's such a messy system. But I don't know. I guess it'd be really interesting to learn a bit more about what they're doing in other countries. Like, what does... I was just gonna say. Japan. Like, what are... What's going on in some of these prison systems? Because I feel like all I really know about is what's local. And then you hear about the really scary, gross ones in, like, other countries that just... They don't... Broken Down Palace. Claire Dane.

[00:32:04] Yeah. Yes. Exactly. This is it. Exactly. Like, there's no consistency across nations. Really. But, like, look how different it is even just between Canada and the U.S. Like, in the U.S. They have, like, a private prison system. Like, you and me could run a prison? I mean, first of all... It'd be a fun prison. It would be fun and safe. Mandatory Star Trek watching. It'll make you a better person. We're all gonna try to work towards the Gene Roddenberry vision people.

[00:32:34] Like, come on. Yeah. Help us build the technology for holodex already. Come on. We're putting you to work. And that's the other thing I think that they should do. I don't think that there should be, like, slave labor in prisons. But I think there should be more utilizing people that have nothing but free time. And getting them... Like, when they had those shows about, like, the parolees and pups and they're training dogs. And it makes them a better person and they care for a dog. And then they help train the dog to be a seeing... Or whatever the case may be.

[00:33:01] Or, you know, get them fucking planting community gardens or something. Or making buttons for kids. I don't know. Like, there's just... There's ways that their time can be spent. Other than just creating internal gangs and getting face tattoos. Not to stereotype. But, like... Again, I'm going off of the few shows I've seen. It's like... Well, I... They're coming from... It's called Coming From Somewhere.

[00:33:27] And then you have, like, other prisons where they're, like, doing the Michael Jackson dance and stuff. Oh, I remember that was a whole thing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But still, like, probably horrors among horrors happening in the back. And a lot of people would just be like, who cares? You chose not to participate in society. That's what you get. And I... Not helpful. Nope. You know? Not helpful. Especially if you didn't have a chance. And you grew up with parents that maybe had drug issues. Or you were abused.

[00:33:55] Or you fled from home because it wasn't a safe place to be. And you're on the streets at 14. And you got caught up with the wrong crowd because you were 14. Yeah. And then you become a criminal. And, like... Well, yeah. You go in for petty theft and you come out, like, a murderer. Yeah. And, like, then the mental health side of it where they're not even, like... You know, there's... It's easier to get drugs in prison than it is outside of prison. And people who have mental health issues that aren't getting diagnosed and they're in prison and they're self-medicating. And that kind of ties into...

[00:34:25] A Canadian story, actually. Have you heard of the Ashley Smith case? No. There was, like, a bunch of... What's the word I want to say? There was, like... The Fifth Estate did a bunch of stories on her. Oh. And there was a bunch of inquests. It's... So, yeah. It was featured in two Fifth Estate documentaries.

[00:34:48] So, Ashley Smith was, like, born in 1988 in Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada. And adopted at five years old and was described as having, like, a normal happy childhood until about 13, 14 when behavioral changes started occurring. And by age 15, she'd appeared in juvie a bunch of times for minor offenses, like throwing crab apples at a mail carrier, trespassing, you know.

[00:35:16] And then in 2003, she was assessed and diagnosed with ADHD, learning disorders, borderline personality disorder, and narcissistic personality traits. Um, in youth custody, remanded multiple times to a New Brunswick Youth Center involved in over 800 incidences and at least 150 self-harm attempts over three years. Then she hit 18, was transferred to an adult facility, um, after an unsuccessful legal challenge.

[00:35:46] And then she was transferred 17 times across eight institutions in 11 months. I was approved. Sorry for the jolt in story time, people. Uh, Zoom cut us off because we're cheap and don't pay for it. And so here we go again. Where was I? Talking about Ashley. Um, how she was transferred like 17 times across eight institutions in 11 months in facilities in Nova Scotia, Quebec, Saskatchewan, Ontario.

[00:36:14] And she spent most of the time in isolation or solitary confinement and exhibited frequent self-harm, like trying to choke herself and unpredictable, unpredictable behavior. And she died at just 19 years old at Grand Valley Institution for Women in Kitchener, Ontario. She was placed on formal suicide watch on October 18th. But the videotaped, um, and was videotaped tying a ligature around her neck, a repeated behavior.

[00:36:43] And guards watched by a monitor that did not intervene for an extended period of time, like 45 minutes, and was then pronounced dead. And the warden and deputy warden were fired. Four guard supervisors initially charged with criminal negligence causing death, which were later withdrawn. The family launched an $11 million wrongful death suit against Correctional Services of Canada and settled out of court in May 2011.

[00:37:07] And then there was inquests, which were plagued by delays and legal challenges and changes of coroner, uh, and then a mistrial. And then another inquest, which, um, had a broader scope, including long-term solitary confinement, the transfers, the mental health care, the jury viewed video evidence, returned a verdict of homicide on 2013, in 2013. Um, actions of others contributed to death, but no criminal civil liability assigned.

[00:37:35] And issued 104 recommendations, including banning indefinite solitary confinement. And this broader context of, like, the case is that it highlighted issues with mental health treatment in prisons and prolonged isolation. Um, and the frequent transfers, like, it's just, it was just, like, one of the worst cases in Canada of, like, the misjustice and the mishandling of a young girl who had obviously been diagnosed with multiple mental health issues.

[00:38:03] And no one ever thought to, like, find ways to help treat her. They just thought, just put her by herself. Solitary confinement. She might try to kill herself. And just let her. Like, I, um, I just looked at the, the inquest. The final one that, with the 104 recommendations, it came out in 2024. And saw that the matter of manner of death was homicide. And, like, good. Because it sounds like they just fucking sat and watched. Yeah.

[00:38:34] Um, and it's such a disservice to inmates and people anywhere who are dealing with mental health issues. Or it's just, like, let's put them behind a locked door and then don't think about it. Where if, at any point along the way, a school counselor or someone could have, like, intervened and prevented this from happening. Like, that's such a volatile time in somebody's life, too.

[00:39:03] Like, what a tragedy. That's so sad. I came across another one, too, of a woman who spent probably, like, four years in solitary by the end of the, like, the way they added it up. She had, like, the most in Canadian history of anyone put into solitary confinement. And it's just absolutely, like, yeah. And then we were talking earlier about that Law & Order episode. Do you remember that one? I do remember it. Yeah.

[00:39:27] But I don't remember how it, like, how did he, like, stablers all kinds of messed up anyway, right? Like, who knows what kind of stuff that activated. Whereas for you and me, if we were put into solitary, not together, but separate, we'd probably just be like. Yeah, no. Yeah. But, like, we'd probably just be like, oh, it's nice. I created a dance. I don't have to listen to my dog licking its paws all the time. Like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that episode.

[00:39:54] All I remember about that episode is that Stabler asked to be put into solitary confinement because he had a case where the guy was pleading not responsible psychologically because he was so traumatized from being in solitary confinement. And Stabler was like, this is a bullshit. Like, there's no way. Like, that's a thing. Yeah. And then he goes into solitary confinement. And I just remember the scene where, like, the guard comes to, like, let him out. Let him out. Yeah. And he's like, I can't let him.

[00:40:22] You've been here for two weeks. He's like, it's been three hours, dude. Like, or, you know, it was like, it's been three days. Like you said, sir, not two weeks. Yeah. Just the way you, like, lose track of. So. And he's like, I guess he has a defense. Like, this would be very, if this was something that you survived for months on end, like, throw him in the hole. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, like, it's not Star Trek's job to talk about the aftermath of things.

[00:40:49] But, like, I wonder how that all played out. Yeah. Well, I think that they should have just, I mean, Bashir, when he, Bashir's like, I can't remove your memories unless I remove all of your memories. And I'm like, can't Spock just do that because he did that for Kirk. So Vulcan nerve pinch could have. Is there any Vulcans on the station today? Like, you know. Yeah. But for the story purposes, Miles must suffer. So this is where he suffered. And it's a brutal episode. And it's really well acted. And it's a very good episode.

[00:41:17] And it kind of just touches on the fact that, like, this is DS9 in a nutshell, man. Like, they do some really good, like, heavy episodes. And they get into the war. Like, I just watched one the other day. And it was, like, kids that were Cardassians that were abandoned by their families on Bajor. And then they're being raised by Bajorans and raised to hate Cardassians and hate what they are.

[00:41:44] And it's, like, and taught that, like, you know, your Cardassians are bad people. Like, all they did was rape and pillage our land and occupied and just brutalized us. And then, but do you send the kid home with the father who was told that the kid was dead? Like, ooh, it just touches on things that I think, especially now, like, yeah, really good. Totally. Mm-hmm. Ugh. Ahead of its time.

[00:42:07] Also, shout out to Frame of Mind, TNG, where it's another sort of mental health crisis. Trying to communicate to someone that you're not crazy. Anyway, not exactly the same. But, yeah. Yeah.

[00:42:31] So, I'm going to save our DS9 Season 2 breakdown for the next one because this is already a longer episode. I think I'll just leave it. This one's a bit more of a heavy, like, serious-ish episode. And we like to put a humorous spin on it because life is short and the world's on fire. So, have a laugh.

[00:42:53] But I think it's also good just to talk about an episode like this where it's, you know, especially given, like, the state of the world and you turn on the news and it's one thing after another. And all people seem to care about on some news stations is money. And all these people care about is soccer. And all these people care about is winning the next election or not winning the next election or how much algae is in the reflecting pool.

[00:43:22] So, take some time to make sure that you're okay. You know? Turn off the cell phones and turn off the social media and turn off the TV. Listen to good music. Call a friend. Check in on a friend. You know? Eat yogurt. Probiotics. Terry loves yogurt. Yeah. Oh, on a funner note, you're watching Parks and Recreation for the first time.

[00:43:51] I love that show. What season are you on? We're in season four. That was getting really good. It is. I don't want to bring down this. Well, it's already a deep podcast, but Will Sebastian died. Did you see the concert for him? Like the... Yeah, yeah. They were like, bye-bye, little Sebastian. Like candles in the wind. Yes, yes. Yes, 5,000 candles in the wind.

[00:44:20] So good. Also, I was like... Andy and April got married immediately. And then I was like, oh... I just kind of felt like, oh no, they're going to break up soon. They'll get a... And John's like, I don't think they get... I don't remember them. And I was like, oh... And it's just like, what a treat to have kind of like a light show. And like, I love all the characters.

[00:44:48] I am Ben, but also Jean Ralfio. Oh, he is the one! I'm a sister. Money, please! Oh, it's so good. So yeah, I'm loving it. Chicky-chicky, parm-parm. Just met Tammy one. She just came back. My mother's name is Tammy, too. My mother's name is also... My mother's name is Tamara.

[00:45:18] She goes by Tammy. I love him. Yeah, it's so good. I love him. My favorite moments of him are... My favorite was his big smile when he found the free buffet of breakfast food at the strip club. And he's just holding up the bacon. He's just so happy. Or like any of those moments where he's just like, I'm a simple man. I like pretty brunettes and breakfast food.

[00:45:44] When Leslie, like he was so afraid that she was planning a big party for his birthday. And then it was just a steak with some whiskey or whatever. And a war movie. And a war movie. And it was like next year. Yeah. Why would I give you an Ann Perkins party? You're not Ann Perkins. Oh, Leslie is so sweet. Oh, she's just announced that she's going to run for city council.

[00:46:15] Whoa. And so her and Ben had to break up because he's the city manager or he's under Rob Lowe. Chris. Good show. It's so great. Good palate cleanser after a rough work day or whatever. We're doing a watch at Brooklyn Nine-Nine right now. And we're just gearing up for the big wedding. So we got Jimmy Smits and Bradley Cooper head to head.

[00:46:44] What great guest acting. I love the vulture. I mean, he was on Oz throughout the whole series. So good. He's so good on Law and Order SVU too. I absolutely. Dean Withers, I think his name is. And he is such a good actor. And he's so good as the vulture. He books the same haul to get married, but he's like cheating on his fiance. And like, oh. So good. So good.

[00:47:08] Anyway, I'm going to go watch my final episode of the Dallas Cowboys cheerleader season three. Enjoy. So watch it if you have a chance. And then we're all caught up on the Dutton Ranch. So I don't know what we're going to watch tonight. We've been. Oh, we started watching the new season of Beef. Oh. It's good. Have you. The Burroughs. We finished it. I heard it got canceled already. Oh, I could see that.

[00:47:38] Yeah. We haven't watched it. I don't know if we will now. Yeah. I mean, Alfred Molina or whatever is like amazing. I'll be jealous. Every episode. Wow. Brad seems to think that he's on my laminated card. And so I feel guilty now if I want to watch an Alfred Molina show, I'll get in trouble. He'll watch me from the side looking to see how much I'm smiling as I watch the show. You just put a mask on. I'll get one of those red light therapy masks. He'll never see my face again.

[00:48:07] But when he does, it'll look younger. Yes. Totally. I love it. All right. Oh, good. This was lovely. Thank you. Yeah. I wonder what we'll do for next one. Oh, we're going to do a Wesley Crusher one, right? Okay. Yeah. Do you want to do justice or do you want to do the first duty or whatever? The one where he gets in trouble with the death in the Starfleet Academy? That one or justice? I think I want to do justice. Or do you want to do a special doubleheader? No. No, we'll spread them out.

[00:48:37] We're going to spread out the Wesley stuff. But yeah, I mean, I like them both. I'm really, I'm fine with flipping a coin. I like, I like the, I like that's a more pleasing aesthetic. For me to watch versus the whole thing where he gets mixed up with the, the take in the shuttle and all that kind of stuff. And I'm just, I don't know, the rules, breaking the rules, getting in trouble. I don't like it. Okay. We'll watch justice.

[00:49:08] You don't like a bad boy, Wesley Crusher. You're like the really, really young. Questionable jumpsuit. I like the docile one. The one who's too scared to say no. Okay. Bye. Okay. I love it. All right. Well, it was great to see you. Oh, you too. And thanks for being here. Thanks to you. Going through a hard episode.

[00:49:39] Until the next one. Absolutely. Everyone take care of yourself. And apparently. In infinity. And beyond. Space Crime Continuum is a production of Trek Geeks. Executive Producers Bill Smith and Dan Davidson.

[00:50:00] For more great Star Trek podcasts, discover the other shows of Trek Geeks available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on trekgeeks.com.

[00:50:36] And then, we'll see you next time.