Michael Jan Friedman

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[00:00:43] Welcome back, listeners of The BIG Sci-Fi Podcast.

[00:00:47] Today, we are beyond excited to introduce a legendary guest in the world of science, fiction, literature, and Star Trek fandom.

[00:00:54] Welcome, the incredible Michael Jan Friedman.

[00:00:57] If you're a lover of classic Trek novels like me, you're in for a real treat.

[00:01:03] Michael Jan, and I call him Michael Jan because I'm going to reveal something I have never revealed on the podcast before.

[00:01:10] At least, I think I haven't.

[00:01:11] My middle name is also Jan.

[00:01:15] Michael Jan is an accomplished and prolific author with over 80 books to his name, including countless stories set in the Star Trek universe.

[00:01:25] Now, you might also recognize his work from fan-favorite novels like Reunion, Crossover, which I just read recently, and The Valiant.

[00:01:35] Those have become some of the essential reads for Trekkies everywhere who love to read Trek.

[00:01:39] Now, Michael has a knack for bringing beloved characters to life while expanding the Star Trek lore in ways that feel both thrilling and true to the spirit of this franchise.

[00:01:48] And his writing goes beyond Trek, too.

[00:01:51] He's penned stories in other franchises such as Lois and Clark, Predator, Aliens, X-Men, and more.

[00:01:57] So today, we're going to dive into Michael Jan's impressive career, his insights on storytelling in the Trek universe,

[00:02:04] and hopefully he'll share some details about some recent or upcoming projects.

[00:02:08] Hi, Michael.

[00:02:09] Michael Jan.

[00:02:11] Hi.

[00:02:12] How are you doing?

[00:02:14] We're great.

[00:02:15] We're great.

[00:02:16] I want to start with just what initially drew you to writing.

[00:02:22] I want to just start right there, especially because you're so prolific.

[00:02:26] Reading.

[00:02:27] You know, I was a voracious reader when I was young.

[00:02:35] I actually started with comics when I was very little, and then, you know, I started reading everything.

[00:02:41] I read, I think, one month, I read the whole Hardy Boys over it.

[00:02:47] Oh, my.

[00:02:48] Wow.

[00:02:49] In fact, I used to go back and forth.

[00:02:51] I was a little guy, but I used to go back and forth across a park in the evening to my friend's house to, because he had the whole series of Hardy Boys books.

[00:03:05] So I would exchange what I had just read for a new one.

[00:03:09] And his parents must have thought, this guy's parents let him run across the park at night?

[00:03:16] You know, what's going on here?

[00:03:19] I would, as soon as I finished one, I would run to Stephen's house and go get another one.

[00:03:27] So I read a lot, and, you know, I admired the people who could keep me enthralled the way they did.

[00:03:35] And I wanted to be one of those people.

[00:03:38] So, like, what age would you say you wrote your first story?

[00:03:44] I think probably around seven.

[00:03:47] Wow.

[00:03:47] You know, it was a little story.

[00:03:50] I wouldn't even call it a short story.

[00:03:52] It was almost more like a vignette.

[00:03:54] But I guess I must have gotten good feedback because I did it some more.

[00:04:01] And, you know, through middle school and high school, I continued to write.

[00:04:09] And then I got to college.

[00:04:12] And I thought, you know, I think I could really do this.

[00:04:17] I think I can really write a novel.

[00:04:20] And I had a professor at college, a guy named Jerry Mangione, who was the uncle of Chuck Mangione, the musician.

[00:04:31] I was just going to ask what's in the name of John.

[00:04:33] Okay, okay, okay.

[00:04:35] That's pretty cool.

[00:04:36] And he had won the National Book Award.

[00:04:37] And he encouraged me.

[00:04:44] And he kept saying, you know, why does a Jewish kid from Queens want to write about, you know, mythological characters?

[00:04:54] How does that happen?

[00:04:55] And that's what I'm interested in.

[00:04:58] So he was helpful and encouraging.

[00:05:01] And I did a series of independent studies.

[00:05:06] And by the time I was done, I had a bar.

[00:05:10] And there was a guy I went to college with because I also wrote a humor column for the school paper.

[00:05:18] And there was a guy at school, a guy named Rich, whose family had a literary agency in Manhattan.

[00:05:28] And he liked my columns.

[00:05:31] And he said, listen, Mike, when you write your first novel, you're going to bring it to me.

[00:05:36] And I'm going to get it published.

[00:05:38] So I fine-tuned this thing.

[00:05:41] And I fine-tuned it and fine-tuned it and threw it out.

[00:05:45] And started again.

[00:05:47] Wow.

[00:05:48] You know, because it really was never going to be good enough.

[00:05:52] So then I started again.

[00:05:54] And I worked, you know, on weekends and lunchtime and so on until I had something that I could be proud of.

[00:06:01] And I sent it to this guy, Rich.

[00:06:03] And Rich said, he goes, wow, Mike, you remember it.

[00:06:07] That's great.

[00:06:08] He said, I read it.

[00:06:11] And this could be the next great science fiction classic.

[00:06:15] Or it could be a pile of horse manure.

[00:06:18] I don't know.

[00:06:19] I don't read this stuff.

[00:06:22] So he said, but, you know, I know somebody who does.

[00:06:28] And he referred me to another agency.

[00:06:30] So I called this other agency.

[00:06:32] And I said, you know, so, you know, I have this fantasy novel.

[00:06:38] And, you know, I'd like you to represent me.

[00:06:40] And they said, well, you know, we're not taking on any new authors right now.

[00:06:46] And, you know, you've got to be a little pushy.

[00:06:48] This is Manhattan.

[00:06:48] So I said, don't you want the next Stephen King?

[00:06:52] And they said, actually, we're very happy with the current Stephen King.

[00:06:56] Oh, wow.

[00:06:58] I said, okay.

[00:07:00] But can you tell me who might want to represent me?

[00:07:04] And they directed me to another agency.

[00:07:07] And at this other agency, indeed, I found somebody who was willing to take me on.

[00:07:13] And she was a big help.

[00:07:16] She said, I just want you to add a few chapters.

[00:07:22] Because it was sort of a, there was some counterpoint chapters.

[00:07:25] She said, I want you to add a few of those.

[00:07:27] So the ones that you have now don't look so weird sticking in there.

[00:07:32] And she sold it.

[00:07:36] So what novel was that?

[00:07:38] Thank you.

[00:07:39] This is The Hammer and the Horn.

[00:07:42] The very first novel I published.

[00:07:44] And it was based on Norse mythology.

[00:07:49] It was about the survivors of Ragnarok.

[00:07:52] And it was in the, at the time, the 20th century.

[00:07:55] And these are two sons of Odin, two sons of Thor who survived.

[00:08:01] And something's happened in the nine worlds of Norse mythology.

[00:08:07] And this guy, Vidar, he's the protagonist.

[00:08:12] And he's getting sucked back into the old conflicts.

[00:08:18] So, yeah.

[00:08:19] So that was the premise.

[00:08:23] And why didn't the Marvel Universe buy your book?

[00:08:26] The Marvel Universe.

[00:08:28] Right, right, right.

[00:08:30] Yeah.

[00:08:31] And if you look at the guy, you know, on the covers of these books, he's basically Thor.

[00:08:38] Thor and Blue Jeans.

[00:08:41] But so I, so had lunch.

[00:08:46] I mean, I mean, you know, selling that book was, was such a game changer.

[00:08:51] It, it was like the, the, the validation of everything I had done.

[00:08:58] And, and my agent and I and, and the editor, a woman named Kathy Malley at Warner Books.

[00:09:08] Um, we all had lunch.

[00:09:10] And Kathy said, you know, the, um, you kind of left it open at the end.

[00:09:17] Like, like there could be a sequel.

[00:09:19] And I said, yeah, I kind of did.

[00:09:21] And she said, well, she goes, would you like to write a sequel?

[00:09:25] And I said, absolutely.

[00:09:27] And she said, you know, it was like, um, it was April.

[00:09:31] She said, can you have it by October?

[00:09:32] And I was like, it was like, it took me over two years to write this first one, you know, on lunchtime and weekends.

[00:09:40] And I said, I was starting to say, I don't think so.

[00:09:44] And I, and my agent kicks me under the table and she goes, of course he can.

[00:09:50] So were you, were you still in school or were you also working at the time?

[00:09:53] No, no, I was working.

[00:09:54] I was working at that point.

[00:09:55] I was, uh, I guess it was 20, 20 in my late twenties.

[00:10:01] Okay.

[00:10:01] Um, and I was working at a full-time job as a, as a business journalist.

[00:10:08] And, um, and so she, she kicks me into the table.

[00:10:13] She goes, of course he can.

[00:10:14] I almost choked on my linguine.

[00:10:16] So, so, uh, but there it was, I had, I had another assignment.

[00:10:20] So it was cool.

[00:10:21] But you know, if I said six months, how do I do this in six months?

[00:10:24] So I actually had to cannibalize my job.

[00:10:27] I said, your priorities are your priorities.

[00:10:30] This job is not where you want to go.

[00:10:34] You want to be a, you want to be a science fiction and fantasy writer.

[00:10:37] Here's your chance.

[00:10:38] Don't blow it.

[00:10:39] So I cannibalized my job.

[00:10:41] And, and a few weeks later, months later, maybe, uh, my publisher calls me in and he says,

[00:10:47] you know, Mike, not for nothing, but you really haven't done anything here in weeks.

[00:10:53] And I said, well, you know, I've been busy.

[00:10:57] And, uh, and he said, yeah, he goes, so what do you think?

[00:11:02] And I said, I think I'm going to, but, but maybe I could get another week or two, you know,

[00:11:08] and, and they didn't want to fire me and pay unemployment and stuff.

[00:11:11] So they actually gave me another couple of weeks.

[00:11:13] And, uh, and I worked there or I was employed there, but I didn't actually work.

[00:11:18] I was working on my book.

[00:11:19] And, um, and then I was home completing it.

[00:11:23] And that, and that, um, became the second book in the trilogy.

[00:11:27] That was the, the seekers and the sword.

[00:11:30] You see a pattern, right?

[00:11:34] And then I left that kind of open at the end too.

[00:11:38] And Kathy Malley said, you know, you keep on doing this.

[00:11:41] I guess we're going to have to give you a third book.

[00:11:44] So they, so they did.

[00:11:46] And that was the fortress and the fire.

[00:11:49] And that was, and, and that was the, the end of the trilogy.

[00:11:54] And then I did one more book for them, uh, uh, a singleton, um, also had to do with kind

[00:12:02] of Norse mythology and, um, and then Kathy Malley retired.

[00:12:09] And I came in to, you know, cause I knew her protege cause he worked for her and, uh, he

[00:12:14] was bumped up and, and I came in to talk to him about future projects and he goes, you

[00:12:22] know, Mike, uh, you know, you've done four books now and they were all, we were all very

[00:12:30] pleased with them, but you know, you kind of didn't break out.

[00:12:34] So I think we're going to go in another direction.

[00:12:38] Oh no.

[00:12:40] Oh, my gut punch.

[00:12:42] That's crushing.

[00:12:43] Oh yeah.

[00:12:45] So, and this was my home, you know, I felt like this was my home and I was getting kicked

[00:12:50] out and, and I was like, you know, I'm like, you know, I'm like, you know, I'm

[00:12:52] I had always said if I could write one book, I would die happy.

[00:12:58] Just one.

[00:12:59] And, and I had done four.

[00:13:01] So really I was ahead of the game and I said, you know, maybe that's it.

[00:13:05] If, if that's it, that's it.

[00:13:07] You know, I, I, I'm still going to write, but if that's the only, if those are the only

[00:13:12] four books I can publish, so be it.

[00:13:14] And, and then I got a call from my agent while I was in the depths of despair.

[00:13:25] And she said, Mike, have you ever thought about writing a Star Trek book?

[00:13:32] And I was like.

[00:13:33] Just like that.

[00:13:34] Yeah.

[00:13:35] Wow.

[00:13:35] Wow.

[00:13:36] Because, because, um, uh, they were looking for writers.

[00:13:41] They, they, they thought they, they could improve on the caliber of the writing that they

[00:13:48] had so far.

[00:13:50] And so they were looking for other writers.

[00:13:52] And, um, my agent had sent my, my fantasy books to Dave Stern, who was the editor at the

[00:13:59] time.

[00:13:59] And, um, and he liked them.

[00:14:02] And I said, great, great.

[00:14:06] Uh, you know, I've, I've, I've been reading these Star Trek books by Anne Crispin and by

[00:14:11] Howie Weinstein.

[00:14:12] And, and I liked them.

[00:14:14] I think I, can you imagine putting words in Kirk and Spock?

[00:14:19] So I, um, so I, uh, uh, put together an outline and I sent it to Dave and I called him

[00:14:28] and I said, have you had a chance to read it?

[00:14:30] He goes, yeah, you know, Mike, I'm still struggling with this.

[00:14:32] He goes, you know, it's, it's, it's sort of about Scotty and Scottish mythology.

[00:14:40] And I, you know, it's, we don't do mythology here.

[00:14:45] We do science fiction.

[00:14:47] And I said, but you know, I heard that you liked my books.

[00:14:50] He goes, yeah, yeah.

[00:14:50] I like your writing.

[00:14:52] I would like to see a science fiction book with that kind of writing.

[00:14:56] And I said, oh, okay.

[00:14:59] I get it.

[00:15:00] And, uh, put together another outline and, uh, and I sent it in and I called Dave.

[00:15:06] I said, so what do you think?

[00:15:07] He goes, this one I really love.

[00:15:10] He goes, but there's no ending.

[00:15:11] And I said, well, you know, I didn't want to spoil it for you.

[00:15:15] And no, no, no, because I'm a professional.

[00:15:19] You can spoil the ending for me.

[00:15:22] So I said the ending and it had to do with Romulans and stuff.

[00:15:25] And it was a lot of fun.

[00:15:27] It was, uh, it was called double double.

[00:15:29] And it was based on what are little girls made of the original series episode

[00:15:34] continuation of that.

[00:15:36] So, um, and that was my first, uh, Star Trek novel.

[00:15:42] And I have to say, I don't know exactly what order, uh, I read them, but, but at that time

[00:15:47] period, that was when I was heavily into reading the novels because I, I be, I became a Trekkie

[00:15:55] in the summer of 1988.

[00:15:58] And at the time, yeah.

[00:16:00] And at the time, you know, so there are, you know, three seasons of Trek, a couple of now

[00:16:05] they're into next gen.

[00:16:06] But if you didn't videotape it when it came on, you know, that, that was kind of all,

[00:16:13] all you had.

[00:16:14] And I felt at the time, I just wanted more, especially original series episodes.

[00:16:19] So I felt when I was reading the novels that that was what I was, that was what I was getting.

[00:16:24] That was my way to get more.

[00:16:25] And so like I said, I don't know what order I read them because it was whatever was available

[00:16:30] in my local bookstore, which was only, even though they were like 50 or so out, um,

[00:16:36] there may be like at any given time, five or so available, but like yours was definitely

[00:16:42] that first one in that early first, you know, year or two of my reading them.

[00:16:47] So I'm very happy I got you to sign it when I saw it in person.

[00:16:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:16:52] And I, I know exactly how I signed it too.

[00:16:56] Yes, yes.

[00:16:57] Um, that, and I was gonna say when that first book came out, what year was that in relation

[00:17:03] to the TOS movies or so on?

[00:17:06] I think, uh, I think it was, it could have been 88.

[00:17:11] It could have been 88.

[00:17:12] The, the listed date is 89.

[00:17:15] 89.

[00:17:15] Okay.

[00:17:16] Is that what we've been right around Final Frontier, I think?

[00:17:18] Uh, well, I think, uh...

[00:17:20] A little before.

[00:17:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:17:21] Yeah, right.

[00:17:22] Jen started maybe in 89, right?

[00:17:26] Something like that.

[00:17:27] 87.

[00:17:28] So next gen was in 87.

[00:17:30] So yeah, it was like shortly after, um, but before, before Final Frontier, uh, yeah.

[00:17:37] So were you nervous?

[00:17:39] You know, and one of the things I always thought about that concept of writing in like someone

[00:17:43] else's universe, were you nervous about getting the voices or the, you know, personalities of

[00:17:50] the characters, right?

[00:17:52] That, that was something that's always made me nervous.

[00:17:55] I, I wasn't nervous.

[00:17:57] I, I paid attention to it.

[00:17:59] I, I, um, uh, I, I tried to come up with the right voices and stuff, but mostly I was just,

[00:18:07] honestly, I was having fun, you know?

[00:18:10] And, and I figured if I'm having fun, probably the reader's having fun too.

[00:18:14] Um, and, and I found that when you're, when you're, um, when you're trying to emulate someone's

[00:18:26] voice, there are usually certain keywords and, and this sounds simplistic, but it actually

[00:18:33] works.

[00:18:33] You know, if you, if, if you have Picard in a scene and he's talking to Riker, it never

[00:18:40] hurts for him to say number one, right?

[00:18:45] All of a sudden, everything else he said sounds like him.

[00:18:49] You leave him at number one and it's like, well, anybody could have said that.

[00:18:54] So, so there are certain keywords that if you use them, it makes, it makes it sound authentic.

[00:19:01] And did you have a favorite character that you liked writing for of, I guess, of the

[00:19:07] original series?

[00:19:07] I know you wrote for, for most of them.

[00:19:10] Yeah.

[00:19:10] In the, in the original series, my favorite character was Kirk.

[00:19:14] Obviously I, I like Spock and, and McCoy is great.

[00:19:18] McCoy is one of the, one of the great gifts of popular culture to every world.

[00:19:23] I, I would say the two most fun people to write dialogue for are, are McCoy and Ben

[00:19:34] Grimm, the thing.

[00:19:36] Hmm.

[00:19:37] Oh, okay.

[00:19:38] Gotcha.

[00:19:38] Yeah.

[00:19:39] Right.

[00:19:40] Cause they're irascible and they're sarcastic and there's so much fun to write dialogue for.

[00:19:47] Um, my, but my favorite character was Kirk and then next generation came along and eventually,

[00:19:52] you know, uh, Picard, uh, uh, kind of, uh, kind of, uh, rivaled Kirk for, for favorite

[00:20:03] character.

[00:20:05] Yeah.

[00:20:06] That's really cool.

[00:20:07] Oh yeah.

[00:20:08] Sorry.

[00:20:08] Go ahead.

[00:20:08] Oh no, I was gonna say.

[00:20:09] So, I mean, as, as you wrote more and more in the, the Trek franchise, how did things evolve?

[00:20:15] Um, you know, as the franchise itself got more popular and we got more shows, we got Deep Space

[00:20:19] Nine, we got Voyager and everything.

[00:20:22] Like, I guess, did things change with how much approval or involvement they had over your

[00:20:28] story concept and what you were going to do, especially if you're going to do anything,

[00:20:31] I'm going to say relatively major, like kill the father of a beloved character or things

[00:20:40] like, um, did things change over time like that?

[00:20:43] Yeah.

[00:20:44] Well, originally there were three layers of approval.

[00:20:47] There was a pocket books, um, as any editor, you know, would have to approve of your writing.

[00:20:54] Um, there was also the licensing department at, at, at the time paramount and there was also

[00:21:00] Gene Roddenberry's office.

[00:21:02] So there were three layers of approval and Gene really wasn't that into the books.

[00:21:09] So he had an employee, uh, a guy who had been a fan and, um, uh, and he was betting the books.

[00:21:17] And so you would get these, these very, very persnickety kinds of, kinds of, uh, uh, criticisms like, for instance.

[00:21:28] Mm-hmm.

[00:21:29] So, so when, when we, we sent in double, double, um, uh, we got a response and the way, and the way they communicated between paramounts between Gene's office and, um, uh, and the pocketbook offices in those days was a, um, it was a fax machine.

[00:21:48] And in those days, fax machines looked like, like warp cores on their side.

[00:21:55] Right.

[00:21:55] Mm-hmm.

[00:21:56] And it took six minutes to send the fax, right?

[00:21:59] It was like, okay.

[00:22:02] So, so, and you could all, you could only send one a day.

[00:22:08] So they would send us one and, and we would respond because they didn't want more than one a day.

[00:22:14] So they sent us a punch list of all the things they, they, they want to change, change in double, double.

[00:22:21] And they said, and you got to change 10 pages of Chekhov's dialogue.

[00:22:26] 10 pages of Chekhov's, Chekhov was, was a, was a, a mainstay of, of, of the original series.

[00:22:34] What are you talking about?

[00:22:36] So, uh, so, so, so we sent that fax essentially.

[00:22:39] What would it mean?

[00:22:40] And they sent back a fax.

[00:22:43] And again, I stood there while the thing was coming through six minutes.

[00:22:49] Uh, look at your star date.

[00:22:52] It was like, look at my star date.

[00:22:54] So we said, what do you mean?

[00:22:57] And they sent back a thing the next day.

[00:23:01] Chekhov wasn't on the ship at that time.

[00:23:04] And there was a, there was a memo posted on the wall, um, at pocketbooks that from Gene Roddenberry

[00:23:13] from a couple of years earlier.

[00:23:15] And Gene said, don't worry about the star dates.

[00:23:18] We made them up as we were going along.

[00:23:22] Just do whatever you do.

[00:23:23] It's fine.

[00:23:23] And so we said, you know, but the star gates, Gene said, the star gates, don't worry about

[00:23:31] them.

[00:23:32] And we got to, you know, got a response, right?

[00:23:35] Six minutes.

[00:23:37] Um, and they said, nope, Chekhov was not on the ship during that star date.

[00:23:44] So we sent back a, a, another, another response.

[00:23:47] And we said, okay, let's see if we got this.

[00:23:50] We can change 10 pages of dialogue and make it, I think DeSoto was the, was the guy.

[00:23:58] Oh yeah.

[00:23:59] DeSoto.

[00:23:59] At that time.

[00:24:00] Right.

[00:24:00] We can change 10 pages of dialogue or we can change the star date.

[00:24:06] And they sent back and they sent back a response.

[00:24:09] Yes.

[00:24:11] So we changed one number in the star date.

[00:24:15] And you didn't have to change the other 10 pages.

[00:24:17] And the 10 pages stayed in.

[00:24:20] So that was, you know, when, in the, in the, in the licensing department, there were people

[00:24:25] like, like, uh, uh, notably Paula Block who's, who's retired now, but was a wonderful,

[00:24:32] perceptive, creative person.

[00:24:33] And in the licensing department, if she, if there was something she said, Mike, you know,

[00:24:39] you really kind of got to take this out, but here's, here's a solution for you.

[00:24:44] Why don't you try that instead?

[00:24:47] Um, but in Jean's office, you didn't get that.

[00:24:50] You only got, you can't do it.

[00:24:52] You can't do it.

[00:24:54] You know, I also wrote the, um, star Trek, the next generation comic for like seven years.

[00:25:00] And, uh, in the first, in the first, sorry, the phone's ringing in the first, um, issue

[00:25:07] that I wrote, um, I had people, you know, I use thought balloons and, um, and we got a

[00:25:16] response, take out the thought balloons.

[00:25:18] And we said, why?

[00:25:19] And they said, our people don't think.

[00:25:22] What?

[00:25:23] What?

[00:25:23] That doesn't make sense.

[00:25:25] Because on the show, there are no thought balloons.

[00:25:29] You never get, you know, unless, unless it's a telepathy episode, you never get into the

[00:25:35] comic.

[00:25:36] Yeah.

[00:25:37] That's the point.

[00:25:37] I mean, that's always in comics where you have thought balloons because you're able to

[00:25:43] exp, you know, expand what the person is thinking.

[00:25:45] So, you know, without having to do about 10 panels worth of cartoons to explain what they're

[00:25:50] thinking.

[00:25:51] That's crazy.

[00:25:52] But this is, this is an example of how kind of narrow minded, persickety Jean's office was.

[00:25:59] So, um, and, and they were, you know, sometimes you would get comments like, uh, you know, he

[00:26:08] took, he took a tricorder out of his pocket.

[00:26:12] You know, our people don't have pockets.

[00:26:15] Uh, my, my, my friend, uh, Peter David once said something like, uh, Riker, Riker says, um,

[00:26:26] I'd, I'd rather, I'd rather walk the neutral zone in my underwear.

[00:26:31] And the comment that came back was it hasn't been established that our people have underwear.

[00:26:37] So, so it's just, you know, they were very narrowly focused.

[00:26:42] I think that's true.

[00:26:43] I don't think the first time underwear appeared on any Star Trek series was enterprise.

[00:26:48] Yeah, I guess so.

[00:26:50] Yeah.

[00:26:50] The blue underwear.

[00:26:51] I think that might be it.

[00:26:52] And I, now, now with Dean is like, Hmm.

[00:26:55] I'm trying to think was ever an episode where someone wore their underwear, but yeah, I think

[00:26:59] the closest we got was Picard's like not pajamas, but is like, I'm relaxing outfit that he'd wear

[00:27:06] when like at night.

[00:27:08] But yeah, that's crazy.

[00:27:09] Did they have any, um, like guidelines that you were sent where it's like, okay, here are

[00:27:14] the things you can't, here are the things you can do and here are the things you can't

[00:27:18] do.

[00:27:19] Well, yes, but it was never, it was never comprehensive because they, they just couldn't

[00:27:27] anticipate all the things that you want.

[00:27:29] Right.

[00:27:30] Okay.

[00:27:31] Um, so, but you know, there were, there were guidelines and, and, you know, we had a tech

[00:27:35] technical manual and, uh, uh, we had, uh, references and things that they would give the writing

[00:27:43] team.

[00:27:44] We would get those as well.

[00:27:46] Mm-hmm.

[00:27:46] Um, so yeah, yeah, but it was, you know, um, but then eventually after Gene passed away,

[00:27:55] that office closed and what we were left with was the, the very, very helpful, um, licensing

[00:28:02] department.

[00:28:02] Okay.

[00:28:03] So at that point, this is sort of a long answer to a short question.

[00:28:07] At, at that point we had more leeway and we were able to, we were able to, uh, to do

[00:28:14] things that we hadn't done before.

[00:28:16] We still had restrictions, but they were much more, um, logical.

[00:28:22] Yeah.

[00:28:25] That's a good word.

[00:28:27] And, and because you mentioned earlier about the fact that star dates don't matter, then

[00:28:33] trying to fit your storylines into the relative canon of the various, you know, Star Trek movies,

[00:28:42] it really didn't matter then.

[00:28:44] It didn't, you know, cause it's, you know, if you look at, I don't know, again, with Marvel,

[00:28:48] they're very fastidious that everything has to be interwoven and the pieces of the puzzle

[00:28:54] all have to fit together.

[00:28:55] But when you were writing your novels, did you really think like, okay, now this is between

[00:29:02] this portion of history and that portion of history and so on?

[00:29:06] Yes.

[00:29:06] Eventually, eventually we had to do that because eventually they did pay attention in the next

[00:29:11] generation.

[00:29:12] They paid attention.

[00:29:14] Um, and in the movies, I think, I'm not even sure how many times star dates were mentioned,

[00:29:20] but in the movies, they eventually did have a continuity.

[00:29:26] So at that point, yes, you did have to pay attention.

[00:29:29] Okay.

[00:29:30] Okay.

[00:29:30] Yeah.

[00:29:31] Very interesting.

[00:29:33] And so after the, you know, doing some Trek novels is, is the fact that you establish yourself

[00:29:38] as a capable tie-in writer, did that lead to others or did you go now seek out other franchises

[00:29:43] to write for?

[00:29:45] Um, I, they pretty much came to me.

[00:29:49] Um, I guess, cause that established a name in science fiction.

[00:29:55] Um, and, and not just, not just the name, but, but I proven that I could do it.

[00:30:01] Mm-hmm.

[00:30:02] Um, and a reputation that, that helped me inside the Trek world and also outside the Trek world

[00:30:08] for, you know, not being a jerk.

[00:30:11] Um, and I, I, I, um, I, I, um, I never did that.

[00:30:24] If I was going to do something that I thought was going to be, you know, on the edge, I told

[00:30:33] them about it.

[00:30:34] I said, all right, this might be on the edge, but I'd like to establish this.

[00:30:40] And they would usually tell me, sure.

[00:30:43] You know, I, I wrote the reunion was the first next generation hardcover and I was allowed

[00:30:49] to do it.

[00:30:49] It was, you know, it was coming up with, uh, the cards original crew from the stargazer.

[00:30:55] And I was allowed to do that because I had established that I wasn't going to take advantage

[00:31:00] of their good graces.

[00:31:04] Do you, um, you know, with the extensive, um, encyclopedias that Mike and Denise Okuda have

[00:31:11] put together, do you often refer back to that to get, you know, to continually, you know,

[00:31:19] confirm what you're writing about that these characters do kind of fit into the Star Trek

[00:31:23] realm?

[00:31:24] All the time.

[00:31:26] Okay, great.

[00:31:27] Uh, Mike and Denise are great, great people.

[00:31:30] They're great, great, uh, uh, at, at, at, at what they work on, on the show and, and

[00:31:36] in the publishing world.

[00:31:38] And, um, uh, I refer to their work and also the other, the other, um, like the Star Trek,

[00:31:46] uh, next generation companion by Larry Nemechek, all of that stuff.

[00:31:51] I refer to it all the time and I, and I really try to always, uh, uh, um, it in with what

[00:32:01] they've established.

[00:32:03] Right.

[00:32:03] Cause like, if you're writing about the Stargazer crew, Picard's first ship, the crew has to

[00:32:10] be acceptable.

[00:32:12] You just can't like, I'm going to throw in this new character and he's, but he'll die

[00:32:17] on the planet.

[00:32:17] So it's okay.

[00:32:18] You know, um, you know, that's where you have to be, I guess that's where you're referring

[00:32:23] back to maintaining that degree of canon.

[00:32:26] If you can.

[00:32:27] As much as, as much as I can.

[00:32:30] Okay.

[00:32:30] I, and I, I never to, as far as I can remember, I never conflicted with, with canon.

[00:32:39] Okay.

[00:32:39] Excellent.

[00:32:40] Yeah.

[00:32:40] Thank you.

[00:32:40] It can be really hard.

[00:32:41] So I, I got to do two short stories this year, um, for the Star Trek Explorer magazine.

[00:32:46] And the first one, uh, there was very, very, actually very minuscule tie-in.

[00:32:51] But the second one is, um, Admiral Necheyev back when she was Lieutenant Necheyev.

[00:32:57] Oh, that's true.

[00:32:57] And so getting, um, the, some of the details right.

[00:33:01] And I did have some back and forth to, you know, cause I, and I mostly refer to memory

[00:33:07] alpha and information to make sure I was getting things, um, getting things straight.

[00:33:11] But, you know, they came back to ask, you know, cause they wanted to make sure that their

[00:33:16] vision of which uniforms was my vision.

[00:33:18] I was like, yeah, it's about the same time as the Enterprise C, but, um, but something

[00:33:22] I said made it seem like it was not exactly the same time.

[00:33:25] So yeah, it was like, and this was just for a 2000 word short story, which is nothing in

[00:33:33] the grand scheme of like a novel that is, you know, 70, 80 or more thousand words.

[00:33:39] So yeah, um, yeah, it, I mean, it was a lot easier when I started out, just wasn't as much

[00:33:48] stuff.

[00:33:49] Right.

[00:33:50] And then as I, as I went along and there was more and more, I was able to absorb it as

[00:33:56] it happened.

[00:33:57] So it wasn't really a chore.

[00:33:58] If, if I had to start writing Star Trek books now with all that's been established, it'd

[00:34:05] make me crazy.

[00:34:06] So do you have any, uh, any writing, writing rituals that you tend to fall into when you

[00:34:15] start a new book?

[00:34:17] Well, yeah.

[00:34:19] Well, first of all, when I'm starting a new book, it's because I've just finished the book,

[00:34:23] right?

[00:34:24] So when I finish a book, I, I take my left hand and I reach over my right shoulder.

[00:34:31] That's good.

[00:34:33] Cause I just freaking finished the book.

[00:34:36] Yeah.

[00:34:38] That was great.

[00:34:39] And then I celebrate for all of the bad 10 seconds, patting myself on the back and then

[00:34:44] I go, okay, let's go into the next one.

[00:34:47] Um, so, uh, I, I, I plow into the next one.

[00:34:52] Um, I think that, so that's, that's a ritual, but, um, in general, one of the things I do

[00:34:58] that, that baffles some of my colleagues is, um, I write, um, in a nonlinear way.

[00:35:08] Um, so I have an outline, um, to some extent, if it's something like Star Trek, it's very detailed,

[00:35:15] long and detailed outline.

[00:35:17] Um, and I, and I, you know, writing is, uh, is, is a, is a tough business and it's, you

[00:35:26] know, it's, um, it's not easy to do it day after day, after day, after day, after day.

[00:35:33] Um, as much fun as it is, it's also work.

[00:35:37] So, so it's easier for me when I work in a nonlinear way, I'll say, what do I feel like

[00:35:45] doing today?

[00:35:45] Oh, today I really want to write some dialogue, but it doesn't take place until chapter three.

[00:35:50] That's okay.

[00:35:51] I'll write that.

[00:35:52] And then the next day I'll, I'll say, you know what?

[00:35:57] Now that I've had that, that dialogue, I kind of have a better idea of how it really needs

[00:36:03] to start off.

[00:36:04] And then I'll write the first couple of pages and I'll jump to chapter four because chapter

[00:36:10] in the first couple of pages mentioned something that's going to happen.

[00:36:14] And while it's fresh in my mind, I want to write.

[00:36:16] Yeah.

[00:36:17] Okay.

[00:36:17] So I'm jumping around all the time and, and, and I like doing that.

[00:36:23] It's, it's, um, it keeps you fresh and, um, and, you know, you're not, you're, you're

[00:36:32] always, or almost always writing something you really want to write, which usually is, it's

[00:36:38] a good thing in terms of the quality.

[00:36:40] How, how detailed would you say your outlines are?

[00:36:44] Uh, it depends.

[00:36:44] I mean, uh, um, if I'm just writing an outline for myself, something that I'm going to publish

[00:36:50] independently, um, um, and it's just me, uh, not that detailed, but I always know the beginning,

[00:36:59] the middle, and the end.

[00:37:00] Okay.

[00:37:01] Um, and it's kind of flexible, you know, sometimes, you know, I was writing a book called Calus,

[00:37:06] um, uh, uh, about the, you know, the Klingon, um, epic hero.

[00:37:13] And, um, I had a detailed outline and then I got to a certain point in the book and I'm

[00:37:20] not going to tell you what it was.

[00:37:22] It was a spoiler for anyone, but, uh, where I said, oh my God, wait a second.

[00:37:28] What if this guy is that guy?

[00:37:31] And, and, and, and I said, this is too good to pass up.

[00:37:35] So I, again, I don't surprise anybody.

[00:37:38] So I, I called the licensing department at Paramount and I spoke to my friend Paula and I said,

[00:37:45] I wanted, can I do this?

[00:37:47] I know, I know it wasn't in the outline.

[00:37:49] Can I do this?

[00:37:49] And she said, yep, go ahead and do it.

[00:37:52] So I surprised myself, you know, um, uh, Douglas Adams who wrote the hitchhiker's guide books

[00:37:59] writers only job is to surprise himself.

[00:38:02] So I did, I surprised myself and it worked out better, but having said that, I still

[00:38:09] always have an outline, even for short fiction.

[00:38:12] I generally have some kind of outline.

[00:38:15] I know how it's going to go and maybe I'll tweak it.

[00:38:19] I'll diverge from it, but I want to know, um, I want to know how it's going to end and

[00:38:25] how it's going to begin and what's going to happen.

[00:38:30] Um, to, oh, I was going to go ahead.

[00:38:33] No, you go.

[00:38:33] I was going to say to expand on Chris's question to you, what is your writing day?

[00:38:40] Like, I mean, do you get up in the morning?

[00:38:41] I have a glass of juice, a bowl of Cheerios, and then I go to the word processor and about

[00:38:48] five 30 at night, I go, well, I'm done.

[00:38:50] And I'm going to go watch the evening news or dinner or whatever.

[00:38:54] I wish I could tell you I was that predictable.

[00:38:59] Okay.

[00:39:00] Really not.

[00:39:00] My, my goal by the end of the day is to write a certain number of words and they have to

[00:39:05] be good.

[00:39:07] So that could take a certain amount of time.

[00:39:09] It could take, it could take three hours.

[00:39:11] It could take six hours.

[00:39:12] Um, I always try to start my day, um, at about eight o'clock in the morning.

[00:39:20] And, but, but, you know, again, uh, you know, a lot of writers, you know, uh, will, will say,

[00:39:29] um, I have to do X number of words today and will drive themselves crazy trying to accomplish

[00:39:37] that.

[00:39:38] And I, I want to do that.

[00:39:41] And that's my goal for sure.

[00:39:43] But I don't approach it that way.

[00:39:46] I sit down in front of my computer and I bring up the manuscript and then I sit there until

[00:39:56] something happens.

[00:39:57] Now, I'm not going to let myself off the hook.

[00:40:00] I'm going to sit there, but I'm, but I'm not necessarily going to make myself write.

[00:40:05] But then as I'm reading and thinking inevitably could be an hour, could be two hours, could

[00:40:13] be 10 minutes.

[00:40:14] At some point I say, Oh, okay.

[00:40:16] How about if I expand this or this wasn't great, but if I do it this way and then have

[00:40:23] another chapter that does that.

[00:40:25] And inevitably I get to some point in the day and I've done the volume of work that I want

[00:40:31] to do.

[00:40:31] But, but, um, uh, by the end of the day, I want to have that number, but at the beginning

[00:40:37] of the day, I'm not thinking about that number.

[00:40:40] I'm just thinking about the story.

[00:40:44] So, so can I ask what, what that number usually is?

[00:40:47] I'm curious.

[00:40:48] Yeah.

[00:40:49] It used to be a thousand words.

[00:40:50] Uh, now it's 600 because, because it can be.

[00:40:56] Right.

[00:40:57] Right.

[00:40:57] So when, and when you say it has to be like a good thousand words or good 600 words, does

[00:41:03] that mean, are you self editing as you go?

[00:41:07] Um, so you're not, you're not just getting words out and then coming back.

[00:41:10] You're how, how does, what does that look like?

[00:41:13] Um, I'm self editing.

[00:41:15] I'm editing as I go, but inevitably I start the next day and I look at it and I continue to

[00:41:21] tweak it.

[00:41:22] It's still a, you know, a living thing.

[00:41:25] Um, I'm still chain, making little changes, making little additions, subtractions.

[00:41:32] Um, but, uh, at the end of the day, I want it to be good enough that if I, if I, if I never

[00:41:41] saw it again, it would still be good.

[00:41:43] Okay.

[00:41:45] Interesting.

[00:41:46] Interesting.

[00:41:46] It's always fun, uh, you know, to talk to other writers and how people do it because

[00:41:50] everyone does it differently.

[00:41:53] Yeah.

[00:41:53] Um, yeah.

[00:41:54] I mean, I try to write when on the days that I'm writing, I try to write a thousand or 1500

[00:41:58] words, but I only have usually an hour to do it in.

[00:42:01] So I just write and I don't worry about the quality.

[00:42:05] I know that I can come back later, edit, fix, edit, edit, edit.

[00:42:09] I just need to get it out and then come back.

[00:42:13] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:42:14] Well, you can, I mean, you know, that's certainly a way to do it.

[00:42:17] Um, yeah.

[00:42:19] I, yeah.

[00:42:20] Oh yeah.

[00:42:21] I'm just going to ask.

[00:42:22] I'm just always curious about this because when I like work, if I'm editing video or doing

[00:42:26] something creative, especially if I'm doing something creative, I like to have music in

[00:42:30] the background.

[00:42:31] Do you tend to listen to music or are you more just let me not hear anything?

[00:42:35] I never listen.

[00:42:39] I might, what I might do is listen to music, uh, before.

[00:42:45] Okay.

[00:42:46] Or in between, you know, I, I might do that, but I can't, I can't listen to music and, and

[00:42:54] write.

[00:42:54] I, I mean, if, uh, I mean, you know, let's say, let's say somebody who's playing music

[00:42:59] next door and I can hear it.

[00:43:01] I can drown that out.

[00:43:03] I can, I can block that out, but to play music for my consumption while I'm writing, I can't

[00:43:10] do it.

[00:43:11] Yeah.

[00:43:11] Interesting.

[00:43:13] So you mentioned, uh, a minute ago doing in, if you're writing for someone else versus

[00:43:19] if you're doing an independent project.

[00:43:21] Uh, so what kind of independent projects have you been doing?

[00:43:25] And maybe tell us a little bit about crazy eight press, which I know you're associated

[00:43:29] with.

[00:43:30] Tell us what that's about.

[00:43:31] And also tell us it's interesting because again, in the writing world, there is this, do

[00:43:36] people publish traditionally or try to publish traditionally?

[00:43:39] Do they go independent and you've done both?

[00:43:43] Right, right.

[00:43:44] Well, I mean, I have the luxury of, of having some credibility, um, because I've published

[00:43:55] traditionally, um, you know, I have a following because of that and I have, and I have street

[00:44:00] cred.

[00:44:01] Um, but, um, I like, uh, you know, and I, and, and I loved working in different franchises.

[00:44:09] I loved working with Star Trek, um, bouncing off walls that other people had established, shining

[00:44:16] a light in little dark corners that other people opened for me.

[00:44:20] Um, I really liked that, but I also like writing my own stuff.

[00:44:26] Um, and, uh, and every day I get up and I write the thing I want to write, you know,

[00:44:33] I mean, beyond, beyond writing a particular part of a story.

[00:44:40] Um, I'm also writing different stories today.

[00:44:43] I'm writing a novel tomorrow.

[00:44:45] I'm writing a short story, you know, neither one is complete both.

[00:44:49] You know, they're both balls in the air.

[00:44:51] Um, I like doing it.

[00:44:53] Yeah.

[00:44:54] I was going to ask that question.

[00:44:55] Do you, do you have multiple, you know, are you, are you working on a novel short story?

[00:45:00] They're not even related to each other at the same time that you can put something.

[00:45:04] So you can, so during your day of thinking, you're also thinking about this project or

[00:45:09] that project for, to fulfill your day.

[00:45:13] Yeah.

[00:45:14] Yeah.

[00:45:15] Within a given day, I'm mostly thinking of one project.

[00:45:18] Okay.

[00:45:19] But, but, um, but within a given week, I might be working on three different projects.

[00:45:24] Ah, okay.

[00:45:25] I mean, right now I'm working on a, uh, uh, a novel, um, uh, called empty space,

[00:45:35] called betrayal in a, in a series I've, I've started.

[00:45:39] Um, I've, I'm working on a Sherlock Holmes collaboration.

[00:45:46] Ooh, that's very cool.

[00:45:48] Uh, Chris Abbott.

[00:45:49] Mm hmm.

[00:45:50] Yes.

[00:45:51] And, um, and, uh, and I'm also working on a series of, uh, short stories for a collection

[00:45:59] that I'll publish after that.

[00:46:01] So, so all those things are going on right now.

[00:46:04] Uh, and, uh, and I'm working on a children's, uh, um, a preschool animated series.

[00:46:14] Oh, very good.

[00:46:15] That's amazing.

[00:46:16] Streaming YouTube kind of thing.

[00:46:18] Um, so I'm working on a lot of different things and, and, uh, I like, I like, that's

[00:46:25] great.

[00:46:26] That way it's a challenge, but anyway, so the, the independent stuff is published under,

[00:46:32] let's see if I can, if I, can we see, I see your name upside down.

[00:46:40] No, there we go.

[00:46:41] Wait, wait, wait.

[00:46:42] Let's see if I can.

[00:46:43] There we go.

[00:46:43] You see that?

[00:46:44] See that?

[00:46:45] Oh yeah.

[00:46:45] We see the crazy eight press logo and, uh, yeah, we'll put the link.

[00:46:49] We'll make sure folks have the link in the show notes here.

[00:46:51] Thank you.

[00:46:52] So, uh, so, so, um, crazy eight is, uh, is an independent, I'm going to call it a tandem

[00:46:59] publishing company where I and 10 other established writers, um, um, have gotten together and, uh,

[00:47:08] we pool our efforts in terms of marketing and, and other kinds of expertise.

[00:47:13] But, um, uh, we each publish our own work and under the crazy eight logo.

[00:47:22] And this is our most heartfelt authentic visions.

[00:47:29] Um, this is the stuff that we really, really want to do and we don't need to, uh, get the

[00:47:36] numbers that you get, uh, or hope for when you, when you work with a traditional publisher.

[00:47:43] Um, I'll give you an example.

[00:47:47] Um, I, um, I have a series called Aslan, which is about a 21st century Aztec empire, noir

[00:47:59] murder mystery series.

[00:48:01] And when I described this to, uh, to a friend of mine at Delray books, she said, I, I love

[00:48:10] that idea.

[00:48:11] I want to read that story.

[00:48:13] She goes, I can't buy that story.

[00:48:15] Can you imagine me going to a bookstore buyer and going, yeah, it's a 21st century Aztec

[00:48:20] empire, noir murder mystery.

[00:48:22] You know, their head would explode, you know, where do I put it in the store?

[00:48:26] Oh my God.

[00:48:27] So, so she said, I can't, I can't buy that.

[00:48:30] But at crazy eight, I don't, I don't need the kind of numbers that, uh, that a traditional

[00:48:35] publisher generates.

[00:48:37] Um, and, uh, I can, uh, I can market it through Amazon and wants and noble.com.

[00:48:44] I can take, sell it at conventions and, uh, and, and be perfectly happy.

[00:48:50] So, so these are at crazy eight press.

[00:48:54] These are the, the, the most cherished visions of the people that, uh, of, of, of, of me and

[00:49:03] the people that I, that I work with.

[00:49:04] So, you know, if it's, if it's coming from art, if it's the thing you really want to do,

[00:49:11] it's going to be great.

[00:49:12] And when I looked online to the website, um, it's only the writers who are part of the

[00:49:19] organization.

[00:49:20] You are not accepting manuscripts from other people outside of your realm of writers.

[00:49:27] Correct?

[00:49:27] Right.

[00:49:28] Right.

[00:49:28] On, on, on a, on a rare occasion, I think maybe three times we've, uh, uh, we've accepted

[00:49:35] something from another, uh, from, from a friend who wanted to publish something that had no

[00:49:42] other options and no other good options.

[00:49:45] So, uh, but we don't, you know, yeah, we don't, we don't look solicit manuscripts.

[00:49:50] We don't offer advances, you know, we don't do any of that stuff.

[00:49:55] Um, but, uh, we, we basically publish her own fiction.

[00:50:01] Okay.

[00:50:02] And short stories or are they novels or, uh, novellas?

[00:50:06] It, it, it runs the gamut.

[00:50:08] You know, I've, I've published, um, novels, and I've also published, uh, collections of,

[00:50:18] uh, wait, collections of, of my work.

[00:50:23] Okay.

[00:50:23] Okay.

[00:50:24] And I've published collections of my own work and the work of others in Crazy A Press as

[00:50:31] I did here.

[00:50:32] So, um, uh, it's all kinds of, all kinds of stuff.

[00:50:38] You know, we, we, we try to do at least one anthology a year.

[00:50:42] That's, um, that's a Crazy A Press anthology.

[00:50:46] That's great.

[00:50:47] That's great.

[00:50:48] So what, what kind of advice would you give to the folks out there who they themselves

[00:50:52] are aspiring writers?

[00:50:55] Sure.

[00:50:56] Um, uh, one thing I would say is finish what you start.

[00:51:00] You know, it's pretty easy.

[00:51:03] Honestly, it's pretty easy to start a novel, you know, even in a very interesting way.

[00:51:09] And then, you know, you talk to, uh, um, developing writers and they say, oh, I had a great idea,

[00:51:18] but then like 50 pages in, I got, and I'm thinking writer's block.

[00:51:23] And they go, yeah, I got writer's block.

[00:51:25] I said, no, you didn't get writer's block.

[00:51:27] You had a sense of what you were going to do for the first 50 pages.

[00:51:32] And then you didn't know what you were going to do.

[00:51:34] So you, if you plot that out in advance, that won't happen.

[00:51:40] Plot it out.

[00:51:41] Now you may, you may find halfway through, gee, you know, it's not going to end the way

[00:51:47] I thought it would end.

[00:51:48] That's okay too.

[00:51:49] But you can't really know the value of what you've written in the beginning until you write

[00:51:55] the end.

[00:51:56] You know, you might say, gee, it really, it really wasn't that good.

[00:52:00] The stuff I wrote.

[00:52:01] Or you might say, wow, it has the potential to be great.

[00:52:05] This by when I wrote the end, I figured out what I really needed to do in the beginning.

[00:52:11] Those parts work together and you really, you really need to, um, uh, finish what you

[00:52:18] start in order to, in order to grow as a writer.

[00:52:23] Um, I would say write on a consistent basis every day if you can, but, um, you know, certainly,

[00:52:33] certainly as much as you can, uh, and you can better get better that way.

[00:52:39] Um, what else I would say, um, don't write a Star Trek book to start out.

[00:52:50] Not now.

[00:52:52] Not now.

[00:52:52] Certainly, certainly not now, but, but, but in general, you know, that was always the advice

[00:52:58] that you heard.

[00:52:58] Don't write a Star Trek book, um, as your first novel, because, um, if they don't like

[00:53:07] it, you can't show it to anyone else.

[00:53:09] Mm-hmm.

[00:53:10] You know, write a science fiction book, write a fantasy book, write whatever, you know, and,

[00:53:16] um, and, and if people like that, you might get an opportunity to write a Star Trek book.

[00:53:22] Um, what else can I, can I say?

[00:53:27] I think, I think you have to be thick skinned.

[00:53:31] Mm-hmm.

[00:53:32] You know, um, uh, not every writer that I know, not every published writer that I know

[00:53:39] is, is uber talented, uh, but they persevere.

[00:53:45] They stick with it, they get better and better, and, uh, and, and they, and they produce.

[00:53:51] Um, and there are lots of very talented writers who never get published because they have thin

[00:53:58] skins.

[00:53:59] They have, oh, self-doubt, you know, it's another, that's another thing.

[00:54:04] Oh, I, I got writer's block.

[00:54:06] No, you didn't get writer's block.

[00:54:08] You, you, you lost confidence.

[00:54:10] Mm-hmm.

[00:54:11] Or you tried to make it too perfect.

[00:54:12] Don't let the perfect be the enemy who's good.

[00:54:15] Um, I do a whole lecture on writer's block.

[00:54:20] It's just, it's, it's, it's all, it's always something that you're imposing on yourself.

[00:54:25] If you figure out what that thing is, it goes away.

[00:54:32] Yep.

[00:54:33] Yep.

[00:54:33] I think for me, uh, learning how to outline and outline more and outline better because

[00:54:38] I, I was in the, I didn't know how to finish world for 20 years.

[00:54:43] Mm-hmm.

[00:54:43] Mm-hmm.

[00:54:44] Well, you know, I mean, they talk about, they talk about pantsers versus plot.

[00:54:49] Yeah.

[00:54:50] Right.

[00:54:50] Yeah.

[00:54:50] You were telling us about that, you know.

[00:54:52] Yeah.

[00:54:52] And, and that's, you know, after you've done 50 books, yeah, you could probably get away

[00:54:59] with pantsing.

[00:55:00] But when you're starting out, I wouldn't pants.

[00:55:04] I would plot.

[00:55:06] Mm-hmm.

[00:55:06] I would plot.

[00:55:07] You're going to get better by doing that.

[00:55:09] Mm-hmm.

[00:55:11] Yep.

[00:55:11] I have stuff, I have novels that will not see the light of day because they were pants

[00:55:14] and they're terrible.

[00:55:16] Yeah.

[00:55:17] But yeah.

[00:55:17] But I, but again, I eventually learned how to minimally outline and now I'm actually doing

[00:55:21] detailed outlining, which for the first time I'm doing detailed outline.

[00:55:26] And it's, it's frustrating because it, for me, it's very slow.

[00:55:30] Because like I said, I can write a thousand words in an hour in a morning if I have, you

[00:55:35] know, the outline and everything.

[00:55:37] So doing the outlining is right now for me painfully slow, but I'm sticking with it because

[00:55:43] I think it's going to make writing the book even faster and better.

[00:55:47] Really work.

[00:55:49] Yeah.

[00:55:50] Yeah.

[00:55:50] Well, because I think what it will do is in later, I think it will save me from some of

[00:55:54] the rework because when I'm writing a thousand words, when I'm moving really fast, I, I've

[00:55:59] trained myself to not stop when I hit like a, oh, I don't know this detail.

[00:56:03] Let me just put in my little notation to come back later.

[00:56:06] But then I've noticed what happens is so then when I'm going through the whole book and editing

[00:56:12] and filling in those details, I have to then fill in that detail, not just there, but make

[00:56:16] sure it's all consistent and everything.

[00:56:18] So now I'm outlining in detail to have all of that worked out.

[00:56:22] So, so we'll see.

[00:56:24] We'll see how this works out.

[00:56:28] Yeah.

[00:56:28] You've done pretty good already at Dina.

[00:56:30] Yeah.

[00:56:31] You've like, how many?

[00:56:32] You've done.

[00:56:32] I don't have 80 books.

[00:56:34] I have ideas for 80 books, but I don't have 80 books.

[00:56:37] In how many years?

[00:56:38] What?

[00:56:38] Two years?

[00:56:39] Well, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:56:41] Five in three, but that you don't see the decade of work before those.

[00:56:45] Right.

[00:56:46] That's fair.

[00:56:46] That's fair.

[00:56:47] Because I technically started that first book.

[00:56:49] I technically started in 2012.

[00:56:51] So.

[00:56:52] Right.

[00:56:52] Okay.

[00:56:52] I have a lot to catch up for 80.

[00:56:56] But who's counting?

[00:56:58] But who's counting?

[00:56:58] Right.

[00:56:59] I'm counting.

[00:57:00] Okay.

[00:57:00] Well, again, Michael, you said after you wrote the first four books and you thought, I could

[00:57:06] be done.

[00:57:07] I could be done.

[00:57:08] And then the next one came and that one came after that.

[00:57:11] And Adina wrote four books about one particular character.

[00:57:17] Very enjoyable books.

[00:57:18] I've read them all.

[00:57:19] And then she came out with another book.

[00:57:21] That's number five.

[00:57:23] And as she says right now, she's working on more ideas, which is what you've done yourself.

[00:57:29] So she's following your footsteps.

[00:57:31] What do you think about that, Adina?

[00:57:34] I think I have a lot to do to catch up to 80 books.

[00:57:38] That's really it.

[00:57:40] So, Michael, what do you wish people knew about your work that they might not?

[00:57:45] Or what do you wish people would ask you that they haven't?

[00:57:49] Well, I guess I wish that they knew.

[00:57:56] One thing I wish is that they know that I don't just write Star Trek.

[00:58:00] I'm very happy and proud to have written Star Trek, but that's less than half of the books

[00:58:08] I've done.

[00:58:09] As you mentioned in the beginning, I've done Lotus and Clark, Justice League, Unlimited, Alien,

[00:58:21] Predator, X-Men, Fantastic Four.

[00:58:27] Do you have a favorite out of the non-Trek?

[00:58:32] Hmm.

[00:58:34] Let's see.

[00:58:37] Again, I think it's more fun than anything to write dialogue for Ben Gryff.

[00:58:45] You know?

[00:58:46] I mean, so I did a Fantastic Four novel, and it was just so much fun.

[00:58:55] So I've only done one, but that was a lot of fun.

[00:58:59] It was fun to write.

[00:59:01] I wrote the novelization of the Batman and Robin movie, the George Clooney.

[00:59:07] Oh, yeah.

[00:59:09] Yeah.

[00:59:09] That's cool.

[00:59:10] And I can say safely that the novel was better.

[00:59:18] Yeah, I'll agree with you on that.

[00:59:20] And I didn't even read the novel, and I'll agree with you on that, okay?

[00:59:24] You know, adaptations are a different animal.

[00:59:27] So for that novel, I had the script.

[00:59:35] And, you know, when you have, you know, a script, a movie script is good for about half, just translating it into prose.

[00:59:42] That's good for about half a book.

[00:59:44] But then you have another half a book that you have to come up with.

[00:59:49] But what I did is I said, you know what?

[00:59:56] I was really a Denny O'Neill kind of Batman fan.

[01:00:03] Denny was the writer and editor of Batman books at DC.

[01:00:08] And to him, Batman was kind of an urban legend.

[01:00:14] But in the movie, it was more like the Adam West Batman.

[01:00:19] You know, it was kind of campy.

[01:00:22] So I said, so I made changes.

[01:00:26] And, you know, at the flower ball where Batman and Robin are standing there with the elite of Gotham, I said, no, they can't be standing there.

[01:00:39] They're going to be dressed in janitor outfits in disguise.

[01:00:42] So if anything happens, they can pop out.

[01:00:45] But no, they're not going to be standing there in costume.

[01:00:49] And so I made all these changes.

[01:00:51] And I said, they're going to kill me.

[01:00:52] They're not going to like this.

[01:00:54] And they did.

[01:00:55] They liked it.

[01:00:56] They accepted everything I did with except.

[01:01:02] Harkening back to the original concept of Batman, I called him the Batman.

[01:01:08] And I felt like it made him more, you know, more of that urban legend.

[01:01:14] And so that they took out.

[01:01:15] They took out all the definite.

[01:01:17] Do you feel.

[01:01:19] Made the book like a page and a half shorter.

[01:01:22] But do you feel vindicated that they've come out with the Batman?

[01:01:26] Yeah.

[01:01:26] I feel like that's what I was going for.

[01:01:28] Yeah, I was right.

[01:01:30] They were wrong.

[01:01:30] Ha ha ha.

[01:01:32] Yeah, that's OK.

[01:01:33] I was thrilled to actually.

[01:01:35] I was just thrilled that they let me.

[01:01:38] Make all those kind of what I thought were logical changes.

[01:01:42] And I'm going to ask you about the Alien franchise.

[01:01:46] Writing for that, because there's been a number of films.

[01:01:51] They've gone in different directions.

[01:01:54] The latest one is, again, a different, you know, retelling of the story once more.

[01:01:59] How did you feel about delving into something of as unique as the Alien franchise?

[01:02:06] I liked it.

[01:02:08] They didn't give me a hard time.

[01:02:10] You know, every licensor is different.

[01:02:12] Some of them take the publishing part very seriously.

[01:02:16] Some don't.

[01:02:17] Some are very serious about parts of it.

[01:02:22] They were very cooperative.

[01:02:24] And I had a lot of latitude.

[01:02:27] And I was able to come up with a crew for Ripley.

[01:02:34] Oh.

[01:02:35] Based on what we saw in the fourth movie.

[01:02:43] And so I picked it up as if it were movie five.

[01:02:46] But.

[01:02:46] Okay.

[01:02:48] So I did what I thought the fifth movie could be.

[01:02:53] And so I had characters that we saw there.

[01:02:57] And then I added others.

[01:02:59] Okay.

[01:02:59] And, you know, I was able to come up with a rationale for the space jockey.

[01:03:06] Thank you.

[01:03:07] Which, yeah, which I thought was actually better than anything that I've come up with since.

[01:03:11] Yes.

[01:03:12] But I had a great time.

[01:03:15] It wasn't difficult at all.

[01:03:17] It was just fun.

[01:03:19] That's great.

[01:03:19] Thank you.

[01:03:20] Okay.

[01:03:21] Sure.

[01:03:22] Well, my last question is going to be just what can we expect next?

[01:03:26] What do you have that's upcoming?

[01:03:28] Sure.

[01:03:28] Well, I have a novel called Empty Space Betrayal.

[01:03:37] Empty Space was a graphic novel that I did.

[01:03:45] Mm-hmm.

[01:03:47] And that I kick-started.

[01:03:49] And it's been well-received.

[01:03:52] And so I decided, because why do anything easy?

[01:03:59] I said, oh, I'm going to take this graphic novel and write a prose sequel.

[01:04:03] And so, and I thought, that's intriguing.

[01:04:06] That's fun.

[01:04:06] That's a challenge.

[01:04:08] So that's what I did.

[01:04:09] So I'm in the midst of writing a prose sequel.

[01:04:11] And the concept of Empty Space is that these, we'll call them Starfleet kind of ships, are so far flung from Earth that they can't easily come back even to a space station and replenish crew.

[01:04:30] So what they've done is they found a way to resurrect dead crewmen.

[01:04:36] Oh, my gosh.

[01:04:37] I like this.

[01:04:38] Right?

[01:04:38] It's only for a while, only for a year or so.

[01:04:42] And at the end, whenever the effect wears off, we'll say, they go nuts and they get very destructive and then they die.

[01:04:52] So they call them Empties because they're kind of empty of emotion.

[01:04:57] And the protagonist is a guy who wakes up on a ship, doesn't know where he is or how he got there.

[01:05:03] But it turns out he's a resurrected crewman.

[01:05:08] So that's the idea of that.

[01:05:13] That's cool.

[01:05:14] Thank you.

[01:05:15] Thank you.

[01:05:15] Yeah.

[01:05:16] It's a lot of fun.

[01:05:17] And does that all be bought on Amazon or where can people find that?

[01:05:21] I don't have to go pick that up.

[01:05:23] You know, I kickstart these things from time to time.

[01:05:27] So that's, you know, that's due to backers in June.

[01:05:35] But right about that same time, it'll be available either as a physical book or as an e-book on Amazon.

[01:05:43] And as an e-book alone on barnesandnoble.com.

[01:05:48] Very good.

[01:05:49] But honestly, you can just go to the Crazy 8 website and find the link to everything I've written independently there.

[01:05:57] And also the link to everything my colleagues have written.

[01:06:00] That's great.

[01:06:02] Yeah, we definitely will have that link in the notes.

[01:06:05] Definitely.

[01:06:06] Absolutely.

[01:06:07] The other project is this Sherlock Holmes story.

[01:06:12] My friend Chris Abbott crowd me against my will into writing Sherlock Holmes short fiction for these anthologies he was in called Cases by Candlelight.

[01:06:29] And I kind of got the bug.

[01:06:33] So now he and I are collaborating on a novel, a Sherlock Holmes novel, which should be interesting.

[01:06:40] That's great.

[01:06:41] Awesome.

[01:06:41] And that's what's going on.

[01:06:43] All right.

[01:06:44] Awesome.

[01:06:45] So next time we talk to you, it'll be 90 plus books?

[01:06:49] Well, you know, my goal is to write 100.

[01:06:52] Okay.

[01:06:52] I don't know if we'll get there.

[01:06:55] But my goal is to write 100.

[01:06:57] So we'll share 90 cents.

[01:07:00] Yeah.

[01:07:00] No, I'm a...

[01:07:01] Yeah, 90.

[01:07:02] I'm...

[01:07:02] I am...

[01:07:03] I'm certain you will absolutely get there.

[01:07:05] And thank you so much for joining us this evening and sharing your time and sharing your thoughts.

[01:07:12] It's always interesting.

[01:07:14] I love hearing other writers process and just their whole journey.

[01:07:17] And thank you.

[01:07:19] Sure.

[01:07:20] Oh, my pleasure.

[01:07:21] My pleasure.

[01:07:21] You've been a great...

[01:07:22] All of you have been great hosts.

[01:07:24] Oh, thank you very much, Michael.

[01:07:26] It's been a pleasure meeting and learning all about you and the process of writing,

[01:07:30] which is still kind of like interesting chemistry that you never know what's going to come out when you add this ingredient to that ingredient.

[01:07:39] Either it's going to become something great or it's going to explode in your face.

[01:07:43] Anyway, it's been a pleasure learning about your way of...

[01:07:47] And your chemistry of writing.

[01:07:49] And you're right.

[01:07:51] You know, sometimes you go, oh, this is terrible.

[01:07:54] What am I doing?

[01:07:57] Hence the explosion.

[01:07:59] Yep, that happens too.

[01:08:00] Thank you to our listeners because this is going to wrap up another fantastic episode of the Big Sci-Fi Podcast.

[01:08:08] Again, once more, thank you so much, Michael, Jan, for joining us today.

[01:08:12] Now, to our listeners, remember, check out Michael's work.

[01:08:15] If you haven't already, go to Crazy 8 Press.

[01:08:18] Go to Amazon.

[01:08:19] You know, we'll have some links in our show notes.

[01:08:21] And, of course, we would always love to hear your thoughts.

[01:08:24] You can find us on Facebook or drop us a line at thebigscifipodcast at gmail.com with any thoughts or questions you might have.

[01:08:33] And keep on exploring the universe.

[01:08:36] Stay curious.

[01:08:37] Live long and prosper.

[01:08:38] Always be super kind to each other.

[01:08:43] And we'll see you all the next time on The Big Sci-Fi Podcast.

[01:08:49] Thanks for listening to this week's episode of The Big Sci-Fi Podcast.

[01:08:53] If you're having fun and enjoying the podcast, we ask that you would share the love by liking, following, subscribing, rating, and writing a review for us.

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