Dr. Mohamed Noor

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[00:00:11] Wait a minute receiving a new transmission. What is that? What am I seeing? It's big. It's really big. Oh my god Welcome to season 6 of the big sci-fi podcast the biggest sci-fi podcast in the galaxy

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[00:00:39] Stay tuned to this channel for the next audio transmission Greetings listeners of the big sci-fi podcast We want to welcome you to today's episode where we're venturing into some of my favorite discussions

[00:00:53] The fascinating intersection of science fiction and science fact with a very special guest Dr. Mohamed Noor As a professor of biology at Duke University Dr. Noor not only educates the next generation of scientists, but also leads cutting-edge research in genetics and evolution

[00:01:10] His passion for making science accessible and engaging is evident in all of his activities to include using Star Trek to teach complex scientific concepts His book live long and evolve what Star Trek can teach us about evolution Evolutions genetics and life on other worlds

[00:01:28] showcases this innovative approach and that's not all his expertise has been recognized in the Star Trek universe itself Where he has served as a scientific consultant for Star Trek Discovery seasons three and four Some Star Trek prodigy and even some yet to come out strange new worlds

[00:01:45] Today we'll explore how Dr. Noor uses our beloved Star Trek to illuminate the realities of science and perhaps We'll even discover what the future of genetics and evolution might hold Dr. Noor welcome to the big sci-fi

[00:01:58] Hello, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor We are so happy to have you too Well, you know the first thing I really would love to know is just when did you discover Star Trek?

[00:02:09] And how did you become a Trekkie? Sure, so by recollection that it's hard when we're thinking back to times when we were like eight years old or something like that My recollection though is that there was a trip I took with my parents and something around eight

[00:02:22] We went to Miami and we're staying with some friends of my parents And I think I had heard of Star Trek I didn't really know what it was and I watched on TV and they had it on their TV

[00:02:31] And I actually remember what the episode was the what the episode is original series episode because you know I'm just over 50 The reason I serious episode that was airing at the time was for the world is hollow and I've touched the sky

[00:02:41] I remember thinking like this is love that interesting, right? It's really good It's really interesting like there's this whole group of people and they don't understand where they are And there's this there's this danger and then there's all these sort of

[00:02:51] underpinnings in terms of you know their understanding of the world around them versus the enterprises understanding the world around Fascinating so went back home after I was like I need to fuck this Star Trek thing

[00:03:01] And I remember at the time like I had heard of mr. Spock, but I had the time it would always get him confused with dr. Benjamin Spock the Child psychiatrist

[00:03:10] I finally got it down after that and then honestly I've been watching everything since it came out from that time on so I missed original series in first. I mean, I wasn't I wasn't alive when it first aired But then I missed the animated series

[00:03:19] I actually only saw that recently but all the all the things that came like you know Wrath of con all those movies until next generation and then all the series after that I've been watching them as they aired

[00:03:28] So what got you into biology was it science fiction like Star Trek or some other path took you into biology? That's hard to remember a specific point where I first decided I wanted to go into biology I actually recently found my seventh grade yearbook

[00:03:44] Which is the first start of middle school for me in my school system and in there Actually one of the people that isn't this kid named Donnie Oliver He actually wrote in there, you know someday you'll be a great biologist

[00:03:52] So clearly at that point in time. I was already telling people I wanted to be a biologist I don't remember a starting point. I think I just always loved animals

[00:03:59] I always loved being outside and things like that, so I I think it was just already there from day one I used to catch, you know, June bugs outside then I bring them in a tooth

[00:04:08] Let me see if I can I freeze it and bring it back to life after that That's fantastic, so it's been it's been a part of you even to the point of That not necessarily knowing like a clear start but reading that's fantastic reading in a yearbook that

[00:04:25] Someone said you're gonna that's just Yeah, no, I know it's way back for that. I love my subject of biology teacher. Mr. Berryman. He was great Cool when you when you started college

[00:04:36] Was it like did you think like what have I got myself into looking at the science the math everything involved or did you go like No, I'm embracing this. This is gonna be exciting. I can't wait. That's a brilliant question Steve

[00:04:50] Honestly, I was a little disenchanted when I first started college because it's so much of it This was a little bit true in high school too So much of it and the way it was presented this this ties back to adidas one very generous introduction

[00:05:02] So much of it was memorizing memorize the steps of the Kreb cycle memorize all these different phyla Memorize all and it's like this is so not that excited

[00:05:12] So while I was in college, I actually wavered a little bit and I even briefly started toying with me as major in psychology I'm really enjoying that much more. It seems like it's more process oriented and the point where I came back was junior year in college

[00:05:24] I actually had put off taking genetics because everybody said it's really hard and then I finally took it I was like, this is amazing. This is really cool I mean, I like this sort of problem-solving aspect to it

[00:05:33] And then the next semester I took evolutionary genetics and now it's just sold I used to I used to record the the class from my little tape recorder and when I go to work out I was like, I want to hear it again

[00:05:42] I just want to hear the lecture. He wasn't even like I needed to take notes again I took plenty good notes. I just wanted to hear it again because it was so

[00:05:48] Interesting, I'm still in touch with that professor. So I graduated college in 1992. I still I'd say every three to four weeks I get an email from that professor

[00:05:58] Also a big trek you so we'd also talk a lot about start nice. We talked about like I can't believe this episode next generation Why did Dr. Crusher say blah blah blah? Well, you know you're hooked on something too when you listen to it when you work out

[00:06:11] You only listen to things you really love when you're working out Yeah Well, what's it you mentioned, you know, Dr. Crusher You know whenever I hear now biology evolution genetics and Dr. Crusher I'm thinking of the episode that hates McFadden directed Genesis Genesis. Oh

[00:06:30] Which it's I have a new appreciation Since she did I learned that she directed it and on the cruise She hosted kind of an evening where she broke it down from a director point of view and from that point of view I like to appreciate

[00:06:45] The episode but what do you think of it from from that whole evolutionary? What is the hot take on that episode? Yeah, I mean Well obviously fiction so we have to give it a little bit and it's a fun story. So story-wise

[00:06:59] It's interesting. It's a little bit of the typical sort of monster thing But there's interesting twist to it. There's a there's a lot of interesting parts that are valid There's some good attempts and then there's some common misconceptions right for all those center, right?

[00:07:12] So, you know looking at this, you know viral spread kind of thing I mean there was some weird comment a comment about like T cells or something like that Which that was I didn't quite understand what was going on there

[00:07:22] But you know obviously like you can have viral spread you can have this sort of pandemic thing Which is kind of what happened there? The there was an attempt to explain what was happening by data where he said something about how oh

[00:07:34] What's happening here is you're activating the introns and that's what's making them revert to pass to states And he defined introns as things that used to have a function but no longer do that's actually not the definition of intron

[00:07:45] That's actually definition of a pseudo gene, but it was close There are some other pseudogenes in introns I mean there were things where like you could tell it was somebody who had read biology or consulted with the biologists but didn't

[00:07:57] Directly know all specific but you know fear. I mean if I try to do physics would be terrible Fair fair that it was it was one of those close It was interesting to introduce this concept and it's true

[00:08:07] We do have pseudogenes we have things that are no longer functional our bodies that in our evolutionary ancestors used to have function So a great example is the vitamin C gene. We have to have vitamin C in our diets

[00:08:16] Your dog does not your dog produces its own vitamin C. We have that gene, but it's broken Right so it's considered a sugie now turning it on is not gonna help because I mean They're gonna make this like weird protein that doesn't make vitamin C

[00:08:29] There's some you know there's some misconceptions there that like would this make you revert now It won't make you revert and generally speaking these sort of pseudogenes after a long period of evolution

[00:08:38] So Troy was going back to an amphibian state and things like that for a long period of evolution Those pseudogenes are just so mutated out. There's not there's no way you're gonna pull back some of those traits Now it is possible

[00:08:50] You could imagine sort of reversions that could happen So I mean I wouldn't go so far as to say there's zero probability that any specific aspect of it could work I wouldn't go that far so I mean there's elements of truth

[00:09:02] You know there's elements of sort of slight misunderstanding and then there's common misconception So that's what I say is the overall thing but good attempt two thumbs up for trying Stepping away from stepping away from Star Trek for a moment

[00:09:14] There was an episode of the outer limits from the 1960s called the six finger where Scientists creates a machine that is able to Accelerate the genetic in Someone or reverse it and so you see the character The main character go through he's an itinerant iron

[00:09:41] Coalworker in Ireland and he is Evoluted into a person where he has a six finger and a large head and great cranium intelligence and it's it's If you can find it which I'm sure you can you'd really enjoy it from that point of view

[00:09:57] Interesting because that almost threshold like aspect to it too Is Evoluted a word As a writer we're allowed to make up work It did sound really cool To for a polydactyly which would give the six fingers so that's actually not that hard

[00:10:20] One of my cousins was born with six fingers and six toes on each of his feet and at birth like right after birth they removed Yeah, that's usually what happens. Mm-hmm now I would like to make a comment about the episode Genesis because

[00:10:34] I had I had kind of a weird take on it originally because I watched all of next-gen when it all originally aired I was Religiously at my television with my VCR recording every Saturday night Channel 43 w u ab in Cleveland and

[00:10:53] When Genesis came on, you know because the seventh season it had some gems But it was kind of it also was kind of not quite in my opinion hitting on all cylinders like previous

[00:11:05] So Genesis came out. I'm like, okay. This is kind of fun like I'm like, oh, it's kind of like a monster thing too Oh, they need to start making movies real quick, you know I

[00:11:18] Came out of like this is cool, but at the same time. Oh, yeah, let's make some movies here guys Things with so many of these shows to use the speed of change idea, right? But you know, I mean it's not like Picard was gone for a month

[00:11:30] I mean he was gone for a couple of days and he came back and everybody changed radically like How are we gonna be that fact that your rate of soul division would have to be so

[00:11:40] The other thing too is it was interesting that like everybody had a different outcome So I'm just trying to think like was it it's active in each one acting different I mean, I get the intro thing doesn't really work, but let's see it's suit of jeans

[00:11:50] It's acting different suit of jeans and everybody. Why aren't they all going in the same direction? That was the thing that I remember confusing me at the time is because okay wharf is is you know, he's a cling on and transferring It's something that right

[00:12:02] Nursal gala she's becoming more, you know some kind of simian like which I expect But then when they had and Troy becoming amphibian I was associating that with her beta's white part Then when you have Barclay kind of become like a spider

[00:12:16] I'm like, are they trying to tell us that he's not entirely human that was like I was really confused about that The spider piece is interesting too because that also reflects the common misconception. We have no spider ancestors period

[00:12:26] That's why I was like, so are they trying to tell us that he's not human? Yeah, well, it's interesting too because like we have we share common ancestors with spiders But none of those ancestors were spiders just like none of those answers were human

[00:12:37] So that again has another common misconception there. So I mean again, it's I don't blame somebody who's not evolutionary biologists because they don't think about that kind of thing

[00:12:43] They're like, oh, I'm just trying to put this together. So if you're if you're a writer or a physicist or something like that You know, you're gonna try to make it work and and story has to trump science. That's that's true for all all sci-fi right?

[00:12:54] It's not a nova Makeup guy said makeup guy said, yeah, let's try spider now. Yeah It was cool. It was cool. Like Fantastic. Yeah, the web everywhere was need effect and stuff and the jump scare for Picard as he was being like That was good

[00:13:10] So I've heard you say that line before, you know story trumps the science So that to me is a great transition to now. So even you'd watched a bunch of star trek And then eventually you became one of those consultants

[00:13:24] On star track and well one, how did that happen? And then now what's that like to be on the side of like, hey guys, this is the right way You're doing it the wrong like how does that all happen and sure

[00:13:36] Yeah, let me break down. So your first question was how how did it come together? So I I several times tweeted at the writers and said like hey, if you ever want to help I'm happy to help out

[00:13:45] Go figure random person tweeting at them didn't didn't bring it in Um what what actually worked really well for me and this was totally a random event I was a dragon con which is the big con in over in Atlanta. It's every Labor Day weekend

[00:13:57] And I think it was 2018. I believe yeah, I think appreciate dragon con 2018 And I was giving a talk with dr. Aaron McDonald who was my friend because we we you know

[00:14:06] We'd met at dragon con in previous years and we said, let's do us a science in star trek discovery talk together And I'll talk about she'll talk about the physics side. I talked about the biology side. So we did that and

[00:14:18] Aaron was friends with mary chifo who plays larrell so mary told uh her friends, you know jane brook and And ken michel said hey my friend Aaron McDonald or dr. Aaron McDonald is giving this talk Let's go. Let's go

[00:14:33] So they actually came they sat in the back of the room as we gave this talk on the science of uh in star trek discovery At the end I remember ken michel raised his hand. He was always he was always a goofball

[00:14:42] I loved it. Yeah, he has this like very silly question like please tell me how I can sweat this much Without drinking anything So of course every turner like oh my god, what's the actors are here?

[00:14:52] But in the q and a so after the q and a session was over You know people often walk up to the front and say I want to ask people questions

[00:14:57] Jane walked up to me and she said hey, you know, I was a duke graduate. I was like, oh really? So, you know, we got we got the talking we like traded contact information I actually invited her to come to duke at one point in time too

[00:15:08] We have to be friends and she actually got a copy of the book So the book that you mentioned at the very beginning of dean. Thank you for that plug by the way um Jane had gone through it like she's amazing

[00:15:16] She had gone through it like page by page and had all these comments and questions throughout the whole thing So she came like really all over this and she said like this is amazing

[00:15:24] Like have you have you do you have any interest in in like, you know helping out? So like I would love to but there's not been any update So she connected me with one of the writers erica lipple

[00:15:33] Uh and had a great chat with her. Erica by the way has a phd molecular biology too. So she's I'm the same wise She knows this stuff very well and um Erica then connected me with um michelle paradise who is the showrunner

[00:15:46] And you know, I had a great chat with her and then michelle contacted me This was a little bit later in 2019. She said actually we have a plot that I think you'd be really helpful for

[00:15:52] We need somebody who has a good knowledge of sort of evolution and genetics and we want to pair you with somebody There's a physicist that we've met that we that we want Have you help out with her name is dr. Aaron mcdonald

[00:16:04] Not knowing that first I know her very well like I have her number on myself while we've been friends for years So so we were both like in that sense at bat year, we were both contracted since that time Dr. Aaron mcdonald has uh has become like the

[00:16:18] Science advisor for the franchise. So she actually is on retainer from start I like to say she's the sheriff of science in stark trick and i'm somebody just a deputy So honestly, so you uh, you asked how it how it is adina

[00:16:30] It is like the the biggest honor to be able to like write a couple of words that then saniqua martin green reads out on the show like Boom, you know a head explosion

[00:16:40] So so do they give you like a script and they tell you look at this look at what are they what is that process like? Yeah, so there's a couple of different possibilities. So the the lowest thing

[00:16:51] Or the lowest meaning like simplest would be along the lines of what you just said like there There's a line here in a script, you know, check this line. Does this make sense? So usually when that happens now, it's usually dr. Aaron mcdonald just since she's

[00:17:01] Actually on retainer she'll just reach out to me and be like is this line okay I often have to reach back out to him be like tell me the context because I don't want to say Yes, and it's like actually in the broader context that makes no sense

[00:17:11] That's sort of the simplest And in between might be like there's an episode plot. So for example in season three of discovery Episode five. I think it was the one with the seed ship

[00:17:23] Right, they had a couple of things associated with that where they wanted to talk about like how the getting the How going to the seed ship would actually help find a cure for these refugee aliens or something like that

[00:17:34] So that was more an episode plot and there's a couple of like tell us like how would you science this problem out? This is the goal we have we need them to have to be able to go to the seed ship and get the seeds

[00:17:44] That will help in some way understand what this issue is like, okay let's say that and I suggest in this case that the problem would be a An infectious protein a prion I said a prion disease is very hard to cure

[00:17:55] It's not contagious the email the parameter said it has to be very hard to cure not contagious You know, you're probably gonna die But in some way knowing the cause of this may actually be able to help you identify the cure

[00:18:05] So that that was the the work through that I did with them and then gave them the dialogue for that The biggest one would be um, I had one of these in season three and also one season four would be sort of an episode

[00:18:15] Or sorry a season wide arc which discovery is of course famous for that right this season white arc So for example, I'll use season four as example rather than three for season four. They brought me in like really early this was like

[00:18:26] Almost two years before the episodes came out Wow Sometimes I see the episode they're like, oh, yeah, that's right. We did say that it's been so long I don't remember They said they they wanted to have some truly alien aliens and we're gonna call them the 10c

[00:18:43] And we need to have the we need to have the process Associated with figure out how to communicate with them. It can't just be a universal translator It probably shouldn't even be vocal like what should we use and you know random things got tossed up here

[00:18:55] We're seeing like what about gravitational waves? It's like, oh, please don't use gravitational waves So for that one for example, you know, I said like why don't we use and after there was some

[00:19:06] There were some ideas that got thrown out. I'll tell you some of those if you want some ideas got thrown out that we didn't use One it was chemical communication. That was the one we actually went with chemical formation I said this is common in the animal kingdom

[00:19:17] I don't think I've seen it in any star trek where other people are actually using chemical commotion That's not just like a fly or something like that And you know, this would work in the context of say hydrocarbons. It's a simple means of getting this to work

[00:19:29] And it worked out like some of the specific dialogues around a dialogue around it Also worked a little bit with the vfx person terms what would look like they initially had this very simple like methane thing

[00:19:37] I'll say no, so that's a fart. You can't use that you use something use So it's a lot more complicated than that so it could actually be used

[00:19:44] And we talked about how it'd be interfacing with the light things and stuff like that and they also to their credit It's not it's not a solo effort right so they brought in some linguists

[00:19:51] There are two linguists who work with medi and they were the ones who talked about the whole Changing that into the lincos language this mathematical language and translating it So credit to them. I had I mean I was there on the calls when they talked about that

[00:20:02] But I was like, I don't know what you're talking about but good whereas, you know They were doing the same thing for me in terms of the hydrocarbons So it's it's a fun partnership and what I what I really love about it is

[00:20:12] With the discovery writers in particular they They were really excited about understanding the science and I remember hearing Michelle Paradise Give talks later. So I would explain to her stuff and I do it a couple of times because I mean she's not a biologist

[00:20:24] Right, but I remember her later explaining like the difference between an atom and a molecule and what a hydrocarbon is I remember her then after I'd gone through it with her a few times her in a later call explained to somebody else

[00:20:32] I was like that was spot. That's good job That's exactly right And repeated people And I remember one of them it wasn't Michelle. So somebody else told me like, oh man, your job is so cool

[00:20:44] Like you write star trek don't tell me about cool jobs. I'm sorry. You have the coolest job there is for you a full stop Yeah, well speaking of cool jobs though, you're a professor and uh, I as as a parent who has a child who's in middle school

[00:21:04] It is the coolest thing ever when they come home from school and they're just Absolutely psyched about something they learned You know and they don't just give me and my wife a general Description Inns and outs of it. It could be history. It could my my daughter is

[00:21:21] Is having a growing interest in science, which is really cool too But she is starting to describe things in certain ways and my son does it too Where you just go man, I'm so grateful for that teacher who just made this come alive for them

[00:21:35] Because it just feeds into a desire to learn a desire to explore a desire To think adventurously about learning And I just want our listeners to know of course if they know Dr. Muhammad at all at all have seen him anywhere. He smiles non-stop and

[00:21:56] Is truly excited about this subject of star trek in biology and his work in both worlds So sir, I thank I thank you for all the work you do to educate and inspire other people It means a lot to us parents

[00:22:12] And can I interject there with the whole smiling and obviously having a passion for it when we were on the star trek cruise My non trek spouse was there with me and he chose to go more to the various science talks

[00:22:26] He really enjoyed all the science. So he saw you like two or three times and he He loved all the science talks, you know, you and dr. Aaron you guys were great and yes

[00:22:35] So for anyone who's listening who maybe he's not star trek but finds himself in a science fiction way and sees dr Nor go see dr nor So sweet K12 teachers and chokes you mentioned that earlier Brian in your comment too. I mean, they're assuming out there

[00:22:50] Who's so inspired like my son for example? I mean, he always has always loved computer science and you know, he's had some computer science teachers He loved you, which is fine. But I love I remember in in high school

[00:22:58] He took an economics class a macro economics class every night you come back talking about it It was really excited and since then he's actually started I think I'm gonna get a minor in econ. I'm like more power to you man That's good

[00:23:09] but I love I love like you said that that That some teachers just like get people really excited about a topic and just really want them Or get them to want to learn more on their own as opposed to just this is what I need for the test

[00:23:19] Okay now hit delete and move on Right, right. Well, let me let me ask this. Um, have you ever had any of your students that you had?

[00:23:29] Come up to you and at a Star Trek convention or some other way and come up to you and say thank you because And this is a real story when my youngest daughter graduated from high school

[00:23:41] I asked her who do you want to invite to your graduation and she said she wanted her kindergarten teacher Because she set her on the direction of education And when she went on when she showed up at the campus for graduation

[00:23:55] Students who had had her as a kindergarten teacher recognized her and treated her like a rock star so Have you had that pleasure of your students coming up to you at some event? Surprising you and just thanking you

[00:24:11] For setting them on the direction of education that they took Well, that intersection is not very large in the sense of lake students I've taught in the college classroom and then showing up at a at a sci-fi convention that intersection is not very large

[00:24:24] I had a students who've taken my class show up And say you know say something that never quite feel like I set them on the track and never anything quite that

[00:24:31] I have had obviously some students who've been very wonderfully grateful and kind and effusive which I which you know Obviously means the world to me, but at a Star Trek convention. That's a again. That's a small overlap group Probably like a total of four or even a

[00:24:47] Mathematically possible, but who knows you know it may happen it may happen one day Yeah, it's true It's tough because most of the college students I've had have been in the dead era right in terms of star trek like most of them

[00:24:58] We're in college like you know, I haven't been a professor that long, but you figure from 2005 to 2017 There was no star trek on tv. I mean unless you're watching reruns So that's a huge fraction and even with 2017 I get oh, it's on cbs all axis

[00:25:11] Who was getting that not very many people even now with paramount plus, you know, it's a little bit better I mean people started to get it but I mean so I've had I teach a class right now at Duke. It's called genetics evolution star trek, right?

[00:25:22] it's a non majors class and When I pull the people before they come in and like how many of you have watched star trek You know vast majority have seen none or maybe one or two the Is It's an interesting natural science class with a narrative, you know

[00:25:42] It checks off that natural science. So they're usually some people are maybe there's a couple who are intended biology majors They want a soft intro Others are like any a natural science credit. This sounds interesting. I'll try that. Okay. See what it is That's fair

[00:25:53] So it's very interesting then introducing them to star trek because I mean I'll I have to start and I have to explain Like what is the federation and how is that different from starfleet and who is kirk, you know like these things that sound

[00:26:05] Really basic to us who have been star trek fans for a long time. They're starting to like ground zero And again a few a few no kirk from the chris pine movies, but a lot just nothing

[00:26:15] Where do you start them off? Where do you tell them to start watching trek? Well, I don't I don't necessarily tell them to watch it So we do it the the course is framed in the context

[00:26:22] So I use the the the book you mentioned as a textbook for it So What we do is I frame it in order based on concept so like we'll tell you we're gonna talk about this and then

[00:26:32] We'll watch an episode or a part of an episode and what i'll do is right before the episode starts I'll give them a little bit of context like okay today We're going to be doing enterprise and then you guys saw in an original series before

[00:26:42] This is now set earlier. So all you know people are a little scared of transporters and A little bit of the context as we go Yeah, right they should they should totally because those are death machines Like a three-minute intro for often, you know

[00:26:59] You can just kind of go in and just enjoy the story, especially if you're just trying to pull the science out It's not like you need to know that you know the specifics about how dex is a

[00:27:06] Trill and there's a slug insider, but like you don't need to know that for for the science aspect You know because that's not that's not the focus So does that work that whole concept of you've got like this the two sentient species merging

[00:27:17] You know like because you know we talk we we have parasites in our in our real universe There are things hosts and parasites, but sentient hosts and parasites working together. Is that Does that make sense? Does it make sense?

[00:27:31] It's well, it's never fully explained. So I mean the question that's always bugged me And I know I'm not answering your question right with this with this bad question back The question's always bugged me is how did that association start?

[00:27:42] Right. Like what was how did the first slug go into the first like humanoid? I Was the humanoid swimming and something and this look came in like, you know, it's kind of like a you know a leech on its back Or did they co-evolve like co-evolve their sentience?

[00:28:02] Maybe maybe it's it's tricky. I mean does does the whole progenitor's thing apply to the trill? I guess it does I mean it certainly seemed like the way it was framed in the recent season of discovery

[00:28:12] It seemed like trill were probably part of that whole thing which I mean I don't know I've never thought of that who is the first joint Yeah, and and my kids my son in particular

[00:28:28] We're talking about that for some reason. I don't know if I was watching a dspace nine episode or something He was so freaked out by that whole notion. He's like he could not grasp

[00:28:38] How will this big slug could be inside of somebody and how it could have feelings and And it could go on from person to person and live this huge long. It was hysterical the conversation was hysterical

[00:28:50] The big parts are okay in the sense like could you have something slug like the sentient? I guess could you ever humanoid sentient? I guess now the tricky thing is like you said, how do you merge those two things?

[00:28:58] Yeah, again, it wouldn't it wouldn't have been in one shot, right? That this would have to have been some sort of evolutionary process over time There would evolve as you said some sort of co-evolution

[00:29:05] But I would love to know what those steps are like did initially just attach to its back and then like I guess I'll just leave it I don't know Now I'm a 2xl all of a sudden Eventually there was some connection to the nervous system. I guess

[00:29:23] And and not just Star Trek but other franchises like Star Wars and other series and whatever When you're watching them and you you see a new alien that appears and you go do you go? Nah, no

[00:29:37] Impossible it can't do it. No no when they always show like, you know the the most evil frightening creature and they Have space travel. They're able to and you go Where's the opposable thumbs to be able to hold the hammer to do this? Do you

[00:29:53] Oh, you're bringing this up against me. I'm always gonna bring up the the opposing thumbs But So that do you watch the show do you watch these things and go No, I don't say I enjoy the ride. You know, it's it's fine. I mean

[00:30:12] The example I feel back to every single podcast I make fun of the same tv show but like I'll watch like cw's flash And we should have like like there the science there is absolutely insane

[00:30:21] I mean my son would watch it with me and even when he was in like late middle or early high school I can remember which I could be like Everything's like yeah, whatever I

[00:30:41] What is frustrating sometimes is if there was an easy fix it's like if you just done blah Which would have been like trivially different. It would be fine. That actually bugs me more than if something's just completely outrageous

[00:30:51] Like, okay, I wouldn't really hard to fix though. Okay, fine. I agree because it's those things to me I always say, you know self consistency within a story within a universe

[00:31:01] And usually those easy ones those are the ones that break from the the rest of the consistency. Yeah, exactly Yeah, so what are your other fandoms besides star trek? What else do you enjoy?

[00:31:11] All I mean right now, you know, I'm going through at least when we're taping this we're through the acolyte I'm enjoying that. I mean I've like a lot of the star wars movies and at least some of the series not all this

[00:31:21] I mean, it's sort of Mandalorian was great. I mean, I love balustar galactic Which you know, I actually I gave a talk not that long ago and somebody said are you optimistic for the future? I said I watched Star Trek. It's an optimistic future

[00:31:33] It's such an optimistic painting if if I wasn't optimistic and I wanted like to have a depressing talk I'd do it on balustar galactic Which I love that show but oh my gosh like you walk out of it like oh Just feel deflated

[00:31:50] I just watched the first episode of battle star galactica The one that has katie sack off in it. Yeah I've never watched it. We do confession time every now and then here on the podcast starter mohammed Where we say confession or I do it's a self-imposed segment

[00:32:07] I've never watched this. Did you watch 33 or did you watch the miniseries? The miniseries, okay, that's what I started And then the first episode, which is very okay Okay, which whichever one were the late where the alien shows up on the station

[00:32:23] For the first piece talking forever, you know Okay, and and see I don't even know I didn't even know what I was watching but She she she kills the little baby in the crib at the beginning like I'm out

[00:32:36] Yeah, I need I gotta go back and watch star trek. I need to Brian It's amazingly well done again, Ronald. I'm gonna come back to it. Yeah, Brian you've watched one more episode than I have How to start galactica I watched the original one with lauren green

[00:32:56] Well, actually the guy who plays apollo in the 70s one plays somebody in the new one right? Yes He came back. Yeah. Yeah. He was great Richard hatch. Mm-hmm We've been talking about just this last week or two doing a rewatch

[00:33:09] So I have seen all the new battle star galactica I love it so much, but it's been a long time since I've seen it and now my older son. He's

[00:33:17] He was expressing some interest so and I think he's old. No, you know, he's he's old enough to watch it So we might do a rewatch on that. Yeah That's good. It's good

[00:33:27] The other thing I like is I like all the game of thrones and house of dragon I like all of those too and sometimes use them in talks too, especially I'm talking about like genics of inbreeding This is what I'm really into with thrones

[00:33:38] Our lord of the rings in your repertoire then as well I mean, I'm not as big a fan for those like those are things I've watched once

[00:33:45] As opposed to most others who have mentioned I've watched multiple times. I've seen all the movies. They're fine. You know, they're good Okay, so we recently did a look back at the original plan of the apes film

[00:33:59] And the newest ones I have you watched any of the new Versions the ah, I have nothing sorry because they have taken the direction of in the new series that a viruses release a simian virus and that makes humans Down and apes up and it's they're very good

[00:34:22] I would recommend you to watch the the new plan of the apes film Which happened all the beyond Disney plus Disney plus a world of entertainment

[00:34:30] Bonsers and then and then you have to come tell us if this if it makes sense that whole virus uplifting and virus down grading downlifting One little nitpick as an evolution about no up and down

[00:34:43] Like chimps are just as evolved as we are because everything's been evolving for four billion years. So this it's up is up Isn't that I would be holder So what I guess what is happening in is

[00:34:54] Or at least how they portray it in the movie is there's some virus That enables the chimps to rapidly develop other intellectual capabilities and Speech and things and but at the Simultaneously this virus affects humans and they're starting to lose their intellectualism

[00:35:14] And I think that's why we say up and down you know up and down, but I guess that's obviously not correct I think that's how they sort of said it in the movie too

[00:35:21] But yeah, I kind of that way it's interesting because this the last film that really got into that came out in 2017 before the pandemic hit So you're already looking at viral infection Decimating the human population and very

[00:35:41] It's I mean close. I don't know about the specifics on it, but I mean in general could you have a genetic variant that has in one genetic background Excitatory effect and other genetic background inhibitory effect. Yeah And you know, could you have a virus that's inserting?

[00:35:56] You know a genetic factor into these two species. Yeah, so I mean the pieces Kind of work now does anything like that exist? Probably not But the pieces are not insane But was that in the dan brown books about

[00:36:12] That they were going to put something in the water system that in the future would affect the genetics the genes of future humans and and wipe out the human race I remember my wife telling me about it because she read the books and and but

[00:36:27] That's not something you've ever looked into now For all these things too again, that speed of evolution thing is a big deal So, I mean, you know, if it's if it's something that's actually like I mean, well

[00:36:37] They love to say mutations and they call please don't use mutations It's very hard to have the same mutation a whole bunch of different people, right? And we're all we're currently alive. That's very hard to do

[00:36:46] I mean, I want to take very careful genetic engineering not just if our scarlet's do something Now what does work a little bit better is if it's something in terms of which genes are turned on or off like if Yeah, oh this set of genes responds to

[00:36:58] You know a certain protein that yeah exactly that works better So that's more the epigenetics sort of area that works a little bit better I'm very close to that because my oldest daughter was born perfectly fine And my youngest daughter was born with a genetic

[00:37:14] birth defect and when We saw the geneticists after she was born and she met us and she said well What's your background and she said oh my god?

[00:37:24] How in the world did you match up that you would have both my wife and I would have the recessive gene And the protein to release it For our second daughter. She's 35 and she's great not ever but but it's just one of those things where You don't know

[00:37:41] That this genetic message is going to change the Makeup of the person Fair point and yeah, so um again And isn't that it's something disgusting about gene therapy going forward to correct some potential

[00:37:58] Yeah, g w is interesting because I mean if you're talking about actually editing a gene not just like turning on or off What's already there right? That's very interesting So this obviously this something comes up a lot in star trek too

[00:38:08] Especially when you're talking about like the odd nests and all these things or or dr. Mischie or whatever exactly I mean We have the technology to do things like that I mean, you know the genetic editing is something that's been around for you know more than 20 years

[00:38:19] Right, so I mean people have been doing that so they not necessarily humans of course But I mean The principle is the same I mean the approaches that are used with a fruit fly Often not always but often can be used with say a human embryo

[00:38:30] Maybe you know Obviously it's easier to try out with a whole bunch of fly embryos and if it only works one in 100s This time it's not big deal human. That's a little more problem Well, I didn't think Barbara Streisand had her dogs

[00:38:46] She had a dog that passed away and she had that Basically clones created Cloning is easier that's much easier than genetic editing because then you're just taking what's there and just pulling it out and putting it someplace else

[00:38:56] But the actual editing obviously like the ethics are huge right because I mean Nobody would have a problem Washington say no very few people would have a problem with a like I'm gonna do this edit because if I don't do this edit then

[00:39:07] Then this baby will die at the age of two months Very few people would say that's controversial like okay What is not two months? What if it's 25? Well, okay, that's that's a lawyer. Okay. What if it's like You know die you'll die very abruptly the age of 85

[00:39:23] Like that's past normal lifespan. I mean, hopefully most people live to be 85 But I mean some a lot of people don't okay, what if it's not death?

[00:39:30] What if it's a like oh, you're only gonna have one arm again most people say it's okay. Well, what if it's a you're gonna be less attractive Is that is is that necessarily less okay? I mean, you know, they're both they're both complications

[00:39:46] Oh, go ahead. I'm sorry. No, you go ahead. Go you go I was just gonna make a note because I like noting such things that I think this is the first time

[00:39:52] We've ever mentioned Barbara Streisand on the big sci-fi podcast. So I just wanted to make that note I don't know why it's I mean My memory Tell me We need a spreadsheet on this adino case we can start tracking this

[00:40:12] What were you gonna say it sounds more interesting than maybe maybe well because what also I find very interesting Because I have a little personal also a little personal I guess history or something with genetics because I was an egg donor

[00:40:25] And when I was an egg donor this was in the I would say the relatively early ish days of genetic testing and Especially because I self reported as I'm Jewish because I'm Jewish That kind of I got more genetic testing

[00:40:38] Because they are trying to ensure that if someone else is choosing my eggs that they don't match up with Stuff that could could cause a problem. Yeah, there's some there's some diseases are more common in Ashkenazi backgrounds

[00:40:48] For example, so far which is which is yeah, I don't have it I don't have any of those markers But but the point is it's very interesting that you know, there's this

[00:40:58] There are these different things in our society where yep two people can just do the the thing and have a baby But then there's this segment of when you get donors involved and all of that

[00:41:09] Then you are very testing and you can be one denied to be a donor Or it does affect who you Choose and I have this on both ends because I was both an egg donor and a recipient of a sperm donor

[00:41:23] For my my older child. So and yeah, so it's it's really interesting that we kind of have I guess all this ability, but we don't say like people go and have that they just go ahead and have babies without testing

[00:41:35] And then find out things afterwards. Yeah, that was a fascinating point What are the ethics potentially there? Like if I'm gonna say date a new I'm I'm happily married, but if I was going to like date someone should I be like, hmm

[00:41:48] should we get genetically you know genetic testing and Weren't back in the day like wasn't blood testing I feel like my parents had to get blood tested before they got married

[00:41:58] I feel like I remember hearing this too. You did. Yeah, I did when when my wife and I were gonna get married This is back in 1981 and one of the things was you had to have a blood test

[00:42:07] What are you testing for? I don't recall it's that was 40 Three years ago in love. Yes, yeah, didn't matter, but it was just that was a requirement to have a blood test done Interesting. Yeah We have the ability to tell a lot from that now

[00:42:21] I mean you can say like oh, well, you know If you do have a kid then there's a one and four chance that they're gonna have You know the apo E4 variance to give you Alzheimer's or there's two bricca variants to your breast cancer

[00:42:31] Or you know, whatever. There's a lot of things that we can't now honestly There's not that many big effect ones. There's some there's not that many big effect ones There's a lot of small effect ones. So if you do like 23 and me and these things

[00:42:41] They'll tell you all stuff Oh, you're a little bit more likely to have Crohn's or something like that It gives you a whole bunch of stuff like that a lot of those things Especially when you do them from these sort of direct to consumer companies

[00:42:50] It's like you have four times the normal risk then four times normal risk means it's like from 0.1 percent to 0.4 percent Okay, that's four times the risk but like It's still like barely a risk at all

[00:43:03] They're all except again like the bricca ones for breast cancer. That's a big exception Like if you have two of those variants then like it's like I forget the number but some like 60 or 70 percent

[00:43:10] Like you're gonna have some sort of cancer. That's a very good friend of mine Very good friend of mine his daughter Had terrible abdominal problems and no one could figure it out and she had a 23 and me No, you know done that testing Found out that she was

[00:43:26] Carried the Mediterranean flu Jean in her Once they figured that they knew how to treat her and after that she was fine. Wow. Okay. That's a case for

[00:43:35] There was a was a really big thing that came out of so they were big proponents of if do that you can find things out So again, I was

[00:43:45] Yeah, most of the time is like, oh, you've got a cousin who's living here or whatever, you know, like that. Yes Yeah, but this actually if you're worried about that see a genetic counselor

[00:43:53] They are going to do a much more thorough and much more detailed job than 23 and me will ever do for your Any these companies? Definitely go to a council licensed to Yeah, but it's it. That's good. I'm glad it worked out for your friend

[00:44:04] It is they she ended up having a child and happy life because she was able to know what they knew what to do and how to treat it That's awesome. So yeah, very interesting. We're here we go with our tangents kids

[00:44:16] Yeah, well, can I ask this is a very related tangent? This is Very interesting this uh, can I ask a nerdy star chart question? Oh 100% I love those What do you have favorite episode or episodes or favorite? Just to share just in general just in general

[00:44:36] I mean, I don't know that the ones I would pick are maybe ones that are very different from what other people pick Right. I mean, that's okay. There's a lot of great like say deep space nine episodes for example that are classic

[00:44:46] The what's the one where where sysco basically? Has that romulan killed off? So you can get the yeah, he's wrong kill off to bring the romans into pale moonlight Yeah, amazing episode right or far beyond the stars again another great episode or the The

[00:45:06] All the perengie episodes all the friends yes, especially that what's this? What's the one at area 51? Oh, that's so fun little green man That's hilarious And it's hilarious What's the one where jake sysco growing up over time? Yeah, the visitor the visitor

[00:45:26] That's something I remember the next word was yeah Well, what did you think about the same d space nine? That's my jam Well, I was gonna say what about the um enterprise episode in the fourth season where they clarify why klingons have no ridges

[00:45:41] And some have ridges and it was all based on the augments geneticism getting in there and all that Well in terms of the enterprise, I mean the ethics one. I love was damage in third season. Oh, yes That's a like, you know stabbed

[00:45:55] Stabbing the heart sort of thing. We actually had on our show the author of that particular episodes Phyllis strong and yeah, it was really a powerful episode very powerful. Oh my gosh

[00:46:05] I mean all the series have some great ones. You know, I mean it's it's hard to pick like just one or two Okay, that's true Well, what about so I'm gonna I'm gonna go I'm gonna not a tangent but there's another question that I was curious about

[00:46:20] Going back a little bit to Students and teaching and everything What general advice do you tend to give students who are interested in exploring either biology genetics evolution? What do you like to tell them?

[00:46:34] Yeah, so it depends on when you say exploring. Do you mean just to read on their own or do you mean that They want to go into this Yeah, looking looking to go into these kinds of fields as a career. Oh, okay

[00:46:45] So yeah, if so if I'm talking to a college student specifically and they want to go into this field I mean I say is is you know, take as many classes you can and more importantly get into a research lab

[00:46:54] I mean if you want to go on and get you know and pursue a phd in Genetics or any sort of related field the more research experience that you can get the better

[00:47:03] Because it gives you a better idea of what the job is actually like and you're gonna need that to get accepted into Well, I should say you need it, but it will give you a huge huge huge

[00:47:12] Advantage for going into say like graduate school for a phd program or something like that So getting involved in research as early as possible And it's fine, especially if you're let's say an early stage undergrad

[00:47:22] You could sample a couple labs. You can you know go meet with a professor chat with them And maybe like say can I shadow for a little bit? Just see what's what it's like here

[00:47:28] You don't necessarily have to commit like in the beginning of your first year and stay there through the end of your senior year you could You can hop around a little bit, but I like to say it's good to have a long research experience

[00:47:38] So if you can find something by the time you're like say partway into junior year and stay in that same lab through your senior year Then you can actually have a real project not just a I was in the room when blah happened

[00:47:48] You actually did some of the science there. So that that's my biggest difference Are there paths for students who might not be That academic minded and not interested in a phd track but want to just go and get an undergraduate degree

[00:48:01] Are there paths for them to work in the classes was available to them so they can just they can just take the classes There are classes online. I even have one online in Coursera

[00:48:09] Switch is free. So if you go to Coursera and search for introduction to genetics and evolution I have just a general introduction to that class and people can check it out and see if they like it

[00:48:17] And see if there's a feel there's a whole bunch of more advanced ones to remind very intro level There's some more advanced ones. So it's easy to learn on your own that way and obviously like breed reading is huge Yes

[00:48:29] Okay, uh guys do you have any other questions? We're getting closer to the end of smiling because the doctor smiling so I did have some Interesting question on her Which is Was there a favorite con moment? When you were at one of the cons

[00:48:56] Or we are just conning you So I like to hear that. Let's let's hear if you anything like that. I like those questions So people asked me I remember one time somebody said like what's the most?

[00:49:07] dramatic thing that happened with you like at a con or something like that and In one of the Star Trek cruises, I think this was the cruise in 2022. I believe it was

[00:49:16] Somebody came up to me and they had their I don't remember what it was from 23 me or my ancestry. Not constant Like that they had their data and they said that they didn't know who their dad was they narrowed it down to two people Who are brothers?

[00:49:28] Right, they didn't know which one was both of those people had passed and they had descendants from these two people Who are brothers and they said is there any way you could look at this and figure it out?

[00:49:37] And I took it and I messed with it for a while and There was just a lucky coincidence by virtue of who the descendants were from each one. I was actually able to be like Oh It's this one for sure

[00:49:49] It actually worked out so it was really neat to be able to be like, wow, that's your dad By virtue of the way like the specific descendants she had and actually it It sorted out in a way that it was extra because they're brothers right?

[00:50:03] So like there was a lot of overlap there But there was one particular aspect about John. I don't want to go into specific There's one particular aspect which like this one Got it. I mean when when you told them that information. What was the reaction?

[00:50:15] I mean did they break their tears? They were she thought it was probably that one and she told me that she's like It's probably that one, but it could be this one and I looked at like no

[00:50:23] It wasn't like on the spot like I had to take it home and I was looking at it And I was trying to think well wait So the dad would only give the x to the daughter

[00:50:31] And then the you know, I was going through basically all this definitely is trying to follow how it would work. I was like This is the one That's really cool. That was that was my biggest I'd say con moment like wow. That's a talking about helping somebody

[00:50:42] Whoa, that's a definite favorite. Is there now a weird one like when someone came up and they asked you question you went What? I don't know if I feel like that falls under weird too like uh, dr. Norwell, who's my dad? That's true

[00:50:59] The first actual father is this a book where you had dr. Seuss write a book for you Are you my father now? Well, I first wrote the book So the the contract I had with Princeton University Press who's the publisher for the book

[00:51:09] The contract I had said I was supposed to write the book and also come give a public talk at Princeton Fascinating giving that public talk there because there were the people who were there in the audience

[00:51:18] There was like Peter and Rosemary Grant who like, you know, they studied like darlin's fencing They're like very very esteemed evolutionary bodies. They're there in the audience There are other people in the audience who are like I've seen aliens. They've come to visit

[00:51:30] I was like, whoa, that's a This is a broad audience That's weird That's very rude too Actually, what turned back on questions to you or do you know? I mean as somebody who's like an expert in STEM

[00:51:45] What advice would you give somebody who wanted to go into say like airspace engineering or something like that? Oh, so a lot of the students I wind up talking to

[00:51:53] One is we wind up talking a lot about you know grades and I try to dispel the myths that you have to be a perfect You know straight a student and you have to love math

[00:52:03] Because that that's usually what a lot of people assume and then when they Aren't a straight a student and they don't love math. They think then I'm out. There's no path for me

[00:52:11] So a lot of what I'm doing is just trying to get past that to show them that no You don't have to be a perfect student. No, you don't have to like math You might have to get through a couple just pass a few classes

[00:52:23] But that's different from being excellent at it or loving it that there's you know, so much else that's happening in STEM um that those are not Requirements, I'm gonna say that would be at the top of the list right now. I love that. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah cool

[00:52:37] Well, okay, I think we're gonna probably end there So and that will let that bring us to the end of today's enlightening journey. Thank you so much dr. Noor Thank you for having me this fun conversation as always Absolutely

[00:52:50] So yeah, we have been through the realms of some science and some science fiction with dr. Mohammed nor I think we've traversed topics from let's say the intricacies of genetics and in star trek and the real world We talked a little bit of ethical considerations and and whatnot

[00:53:05] So thank you so much for sharing your insights and helping to ignite our imaginations Thank you for doing the same with me. Yes, absolutely. Excellent So thank you listeners once again for tuning into the big sci-fi podcast

[00:53:18] As always keep in mind that you can interact and chat with us on our facebook group or find us on instagram or twitter Or you can drop us a note at the big sci-fi podcast at gmail.com

[00:53:29] And make sure to check out our show notes. We'll have links to dr. Noor's work Including his book and I guess the the course And until next time keep exploring the universe around you and beyond

[00:53:41] While you do always remember to extend kindness respect and understanding to all beings across the galaxy Live long and prosper and join us next time here at the big sci-fi podcast