Davy Perez

[00:00:00] Welcome to season 5 of the Big Sci-Fi Podcast with Adina Brian, Chris and Steve, the biggest

[00:00:14] sci-fi podcast in the galaxy. The adventure is just beginning here at the Big Sci-Fi

[00:00:20] Podcast, and we invite you to come aboard the Starship tangent. We know you'll enjoy

[00:00:24] the conversation, the laughter, the banner back and forth, and most of all friends who love

[00:00:29] hanging out to talk about all things science fiction sets your phasers to fun. Here we go.

[00:00:35] Podcasts The final frontier These are the recordings of the Big Sci-Fi

[00:00:41] Podcast. It's ongoing mission to explore films, TV shows and literature to seek out new

[00:00:48] and interesting people to interview. To boldly go and talk about what we love to discuss

[00:00:54] science fiction, tonight's episode, Davey Perez. However before we begin let's introduce

[00:01:02] the crew of the Big Sci-Fi Podcast, our captain Brian Donahue. Hey I was waiting for your voice

[00:01:08] to change. Hey hi. Hi. I'm sorry you were supposed to chase like that. I'm sorry. Our

[00:01:15] engineer and science officer Adina Mignonna. Hello hello. Ships counselor Chris Fox. Hey everybody.

[00:01:24] And me I'm Steve Merck and the guy in the red shirt that seems to be always around in the

[00:01:30] background. First let me say thank you to our Starfleet command better known as Trekheeks for

[00:01:39] making us a part of their podcast team. We've done so much to promote ours and other podcasts

[00:01:45] like the Sci-Fi sisters and we are so thankful to be part of their group. Now to the interview

[00:01:51] we back on September the 8th 2023 I was at the Paramount Studios lot to support the writers

[00:01:58] and actors that make Star Trek and who were on strike. There I saw friends from our podcasts

[00:02:04] like John Billingsley, Larry Neembichek, Mike and Denise Akuda and the wonderful Michelle

[00:02:11] Hurd who gave me a hug. I also got to meet Walter Coney for the very first time as well. Someone

[00:02:19] who was there from the very beginning. In addition I got to meet script writer Phyllis Strong who

[00:02:25] worked on Voyager and my favorite enterprise and who we interviewed earlier this year. And then

[00:02:32] at the end of the day I was introduced to whom we are interviewing today Davey Perez. Davey please

[00:02:40] say hello to our listeners. Hello to your listeners. How are you? That's a pleasure to be here and

[00:02:46] thank you for having me. And that's what happens when you're a literal person. You say things

[00:02:55] we I know we have a multitude of questions to ask you since you are the writer for Strange New World.

[00:03:02] One of the writers that is I guess the first question I'd like to ask you is can you keep a secret

[00:03:10] in? Yes absolutely I'm really good and it's part of my job to keep them. Good because listeners we are

[00:03:19] not and we will not be discussing season three of Strange New Worlds in any way shape or form.

[00:03:27] Think of season three as a Christmas gift. Currently the writers, the actors,

[00:03:32] the production team are all busy making wrapping and putting a pretty bow on season three.

[00:03:39] So we're not sneaking a peek sorry but we will be talking about Davey's work on season one and

[00:03:47] season two which he has written four scripts for those seasons so without any further ado I'd like

[00:03:54] to pose you the very first question. You grew up in East LA. Yes that is correct.

[00:04:03] Did you ever go to El Tapayat for dinner? El Tapayat I must have. I'm pretty sure I have

[00:04:10] on more than one occasion yes. My my my daughter Jenny when I told her who we were interviewing

[00:04:15] where you're on she goes well make sure you ask me if he's been there and if he's ever had a man well.

[00:04:20] I don't know if I've had the man well but I know I for sure have gone to El Tapayat.

[00:04:26] For those who don't know the man well is a five pound burrito. Oh good night. Yeah I know one

[00:04:34] time I went there with my buddy Ross and we attempted to have an eating contest and I got about

[00:04:41] three inches from the end of it and I finally gave up and he pointed laughed at me. It's a great

[00:04:47] place it's a wonderful place to go to the great food and so that was the first question which

[00:04:53] was posed by my daughter Jenny so well the answer is of course who hasn't and it's been a while

[00:05:00] but no I've not ventured to try and finish the burrito. It's it's it's we'll just get a holland

[00:05:06] back it's only happened man well it's really good. So I guess the real first question I'd like

[00:05:13] to ask you and I think it's also in the minds of others is what was your first experience with

[00:05:18] science fiction was it a book it was it a TV show was a movie can you recall what kind of

[00:05:23] sparked your interest in this? Yeah I mean this is gonna sound like I'm pandering but the reality is

[00:05:30] the first movie I saw on the movie theater was Rathap Khan. Yeah I was too young to see it I was

[00:05:39] probably about five or six years old and my older sister who was in her preteens went with

[00:05:46] friends and I had to go and she had to watch me and it was a double feature it was Rathap Khan

[00:05:51] and Friday the 13th part of the year something. So you know I'm sorry is that sci-fi and horror

[00:05:59] front and center which probably makes sense to a lot of people who might follow the things I do

[00:06:05] but I remember everything I loved the movie instantly I knew it was the show that my dad would watch

[00:06:11] like really late at night on syndication and those con worms I just freaked out and was like but

[00:06:19] like fascinated and obsessed you know that's interesting. That explains a lot because you know some

[00:06:28] of the episode is changing in the world are like the darker episodes the you know the more horror

[00:06:33] inspire you. Yeah I did super natural too. Super natural. Yeah I came out of that camp and I do tend to

[00:06:41] you know being born on Halloween and having these films you know I think the next movie I saw

[00:06:47] after that was like extra-sist. And six years old. Probably six or seven yeah so there's these

[00:06:55] like this horror and this sci-fi and this way to advanced type of a tone is being imprinted on my

[00:07:02] young mind but I was both scared and fascinated by it you know and interested in it and I kind of

[00:07:09] wanted to understand it so it wouldn't scare me as much and then now as a writer and a creator I

[00:07:15] definitely go to those wells. Interestingly with your episodes from season one and yeah and

[00:07:25] I have to say I am in the camp where I love the Gorn reimagined at first I at first I was like oh

[00:07:35] but then as I thought about it I'm like how could they possibly make them look as cheesy as they did

[00:07:41] in the original series and for it to for us as an audience to accept it I mean it had to be

[00:07:48] reimagined right and it was terrifying especially the little baby ones oh yeah that's horrifying.

[00:07:54] Well yeah I mean you touch on a lot with that comment you know for our show

[00:07:59] A you know a lot of the things we try and do is like what would they have done if they had the

[00:08:04] money to do it back then right and we're not trying to take away or reinvent or you know we are just

[00:08:10] trying to sort of as fans of the original series and all the other series that came after

[00:08:15] interpret like what was the intent and how can we use that in a new way

[00:08:21] and you know with the Gorn and you know they were a one episode character but they mean so much

[00:08:27] to so many people and the message of the episode was so important and it's their iconic you know

[00:08:33] so it was um you know how do we how do we do that and some people were going I felt uncomfortable

[00:08:39] with it you know a little bit but I also was like I want to see what we could do in our version of it

[00:08:44] and I have to say like a Kiva when I met him for the first time on zoom as I was you know um going

[00:08:50] through the process of uh trying to get on the show he said you know what are some of your favorite

[00:08:56] episodes and I said oh you know balance the terror and arena and he said well you know um I want

[00:09:02] to do the Gorn I want to I want to make them uh the villain of season one and I said I yes can

[00:09:08] I be on the show please now I really want to do that and so it was something he had in mind um and

[00:09:14] and you know our interpretation of them was it was very much guided by sort of his his vision of

[00:09:20] it and then the more we got other writers on board and I came on board we all got to collaborate

[00:09:25] on certain things and you know um I was just very fortunate to be able to write those two episodes

[00:09:31] and sort of um get into the specifics of some of the mythology as to how they grow what stage are

[00:09:39] they and you know um when they're born they're so and I think a conversation we had was we know that

[00:09:46] they can build starships we know that they're intelligent beings right but if we want to tell a

[00:09:53] monster feature story how do we do that and not like totally undo what do we know these creatures are

[00:09:59] so it was like what if they're just when their babies as as part of their development cycle they're

[00:10:05] just that's when they're the monster and then as they get bigger they get smarter and then um

[00:10:11] eventually you know and there's a whole there's there's a probably notes and notes of stuff that

[00:10:16] never ended up on screen as far as like what their breeding cycle is and and why you know

[00:10:23] they're why so many are born but then only one survives and then that's the one that gets to be

[00:10:28] allowed to kind of develop into adulthood and develop you know intelligence and maybe go off and

[00:10:35] captain a ship and get some on a planet with James Kirk someday. It's very interesting about

[00:10:42] the creation of the Gorn for because in the first that is set in the first episode you did

[00:10:48] you didn't really see them you just got to see you just kind of knew about them they were

[00:10:53] it was more of a was more of a submarine adventure in the first one you know the battle and

[00:10:58] trying to find what's going on where they are and all that absolutely but in the second episode

[00:11:03] where you revealed them it took me when I saw it I'm going wait a minute where have I seen these

[00:11:09] creatures before and not in this TOS episode but it was an enterprise the second mirror episode

[00:11:17] and in that one the Gorn was more like how you portray them more vicious more you know blood

[00:11:24] thirsty and and violent and I thought okay did you guys tap into that say okay that's the Gorn

[00:11:32] we want to have in this in our sense. Well you know it's funny because we're fans of everything

[00:11:38] is track and we want all things to make sense you know and ultimately we want all things to be

[00:11:43] true for whichever part of it you like you know and so we don't want to take away

[00:11:48] but we want to add and so you know we did talk about that they're the like as we were talking

[00:11:53] about the Gorn there's like other versions of them have been represented. We even talked about

[00:11:58] the Gorn wedding in lower decks you know like we wanted to you know people are fascinated by these

[00:12:03] characters and we want them to enjoy them in any way that they enjoy for themselves and this is

[00:12:08] just a version of that and yes you know how can we make it make sense that they're intelligent

[00:12:15] and you can do a moral story in arena but also make it make sense that they're vicious and that

[00:12:20] they're you know we didn't want to make them look like a digital Yoshi character that that enterprise

[00:12:25] because of the technology at the time kind of kind of looks. But we wanted to sort of take all

[00:12:32] these little pieces and put them together and say yeah you know and look like people many things

[00:12:38] can be true. You can say someone is nice and someone is mean and they can be both things and you

[00:12:43] could so a Gorn can be what it is for this story because we're encountering a specific Gorn

[00:12:51] and a specific type of phase in its development and you know you could develop or see a Gorn and

[00:13:00] and have it have a different experience with it that's the beauty of stories like it's not

[00:13:04] everything is going to be the same every time and not every speech she uses the monolith you know.

[00:13:15] We've asked this of other people I think it's important to ask Davey this what got you started in

[00:13:22] writing yeah and then let's then let's jump back into the Trek stuff we're past. Sure yeah no

[00:13:27] I mean in a lot of ways I've always been writing. I would journal as a kid just because I had a

[00:13:36] lot of things going on as much many young people do and then I was in bands and I would write song

[00:13:42] lyrics and they'd be a little too they wouldn't be punchy enough they'd just be a lot of like

[00:13:47] basically poetry instead of song lyrics not that song lyrics can't be poetry but it was just

[00:13:53] a thing that I was always doing and then I actually started to take acting classes and

[00:14:00] you know I wanted to be telling stories on screen or be a part of it I didn't know how to break in

[00:14:06] no one showed me the steps to take and I just saw oh if I can be on screen then maybe that's

[00:14:11] the way to do it and so I went to an acting conservatory and after about four years there's like a

[00:14:18] course where you start to write your own scenes and you come in you know and I really like that

[00:14:24] I started to like well I just want to do that part of it and off of that was actually teaching

[00:14:31] young kids inner city kids at an acting school and they all wanted a perform and so I would like

[00:14:37] make these little one act. Oh wow. Play adaptations and that's really when it codified

[00:14:43] okay I love doing this and I could do this like in my spare time and so how do I get paid to

[00:14:49] just do this and and you know that it took a long time to make happen for myself it wasn't overnight

[00:14:57] but the drive and having that passion kind of kept me going so to go after it.

[00:15:04] Awesome thank you for sharing. Oh Dina, go ahead. Yeah okay so in writing oh gosh now how do I

[00:15:11] phrase this question when you're writing the Gorn in season one and you're working on the first

[00:15:19] of those two episodes so episode four and episode eight how much of episode eight do you know

[00:15:27] while you're writing for like how much of it was written kind of simultaneously versus

[00:15:32] we're writing this episode then we're writing this when they were writing this one. It's a good

[00:15:36] question because what we did know was the concept of nine like we talked a lot like what we do

[00:15:43] yeah sorry my bad. Sorry um the we talk about the characters and we talk about the journey that

[00:15:50] we want to take the characters on throughout this season and so for Lawn we knew she had the

[00:15:56] backstory about being a Gorn survivor we knew we wanted her to confront that fear and then we

[00:16:01] wanted her to really have to confront it head on and and sort of deal with these personal demons.

[00:16:08] So that arc we knew which meant that we knew we were going to have the Gorn in two episodes

[00:16:14] in order for her to have that character journey and then we talked about the genres of episodes

[00:16:19] and so we knew that episode four was going to be summary movie and we knew that episode nine was

[00:16:25] going to be our horror movie episode that we had planted those to be the genres and so those

[00:16:31] pieces of the stories were known before we even broke the specifics of the story beats and the

[00:16:40] scenes and just you know all of that um and another thing that was known since we bring up nine

[00:16:46] we knew as a horror episode we talked very specifically what do horror episodes do and

[00:16:51] what do we like about horror episodes and very often they kill off a character that you don't

[00:16:56] expect to die um especially with Hitchcock will do it in the first act oh my gosh yeah and so

[00:17:03] we you know not to bring up these source judge of the camera but I know the question's coming at some

[00:17:08] point it is we knew before we knew it was an andorian before we knew it was Bruce Horak before we knew

[00:17:18] how much we would fall in love with this character and wish we didn't have to do this

[00:17:23] we knew we're gonna kill our engineer in episode nine and I was gonna say because well we had

[00:17:30] Bruce on our show the person I asked him was when did they tell you you know did they tell you

[00:17:37] you're gonna only you're only gonna last nine episodes he said aha he knew from the very

[00:17:41] beginning he was only gonna last nine episodes so now so let me let me kind of follow on that is

[00:17:45] given that he then had a couple cameos in season two was that in response to how much the character

[00:17:53] was light or when did when was that decided well that was in response to how much we liked Bruce

[00:17:59] as an actor as a person uh how much of the just track family he became you know um you can

[00:18:07] like a character all you want but that doesn't translate into you now being a klingon it's the

[00:18:12] performer right and so um we did and I remember we in theory we were like okay if we're gonna kill

[00:18:20] the engineer we really have to fall in love with them for it to mean anything yeah the character

[00:18:25] was designed for you to like but then we did such a great job we did it really well this was

[00:18:33] amazing and his chemistry with salio was so great that it was like I remember like having a

[00:18:38] moment like are we are we gonna do this still is it the right choice and ultimately it was like

[00:18:44] well if we're feeling this then it was successful we designed it successfully you know and so let's

[00:18:50] let's commit to it but because we love Bruce it's it was like where can we fit him and how do we

[00:18:56] bring him back and try to have a wonderful uh history and legacy of you know being able to

[00:19:02] bring characters back in in in makeups and sometimes not in makeups you know just just bringing them

[00:19:08] back because you like them and so we wanted to find a place and that's how we we found the the

[00:19:12] klingon captain for him in season two so because Bruce is so awesome I'm gonna shamelessly

[00:19:17] plug something for a second he's as if we speak he's he's narrating my my book my latest science

[00:19:25] fiction novel he's doing audiobook for logic logic so just have to plug that to treat we brought it up

[00:19:30] but no but that's again it was an amazing character yes you're right we fell in love with him

[00:19:36] and then to so it's interesting to understand how the show comes together and how and when these

[00:19:41] decisions are actually made because I think a lot of us still and I know I did up until recently

[00:19:49] now that we've been learning more and more about what happens behind the scenes but I think for a

[00:19:52] while a lot of us still think the that that episodes are created the way they were back in the

[00:20:00] episodic television days you know twenty-thirty years ago where it's a quicker turnaround so yeah these

[00:20:06] things aren't necessarily known that far in advance and things in a given season get responded to

[00:20:12] closer to real time and and the fact that it's not that way anymore I guess has its pluses and

[00:20:18] minuses you know you get your great story arc but yet you have yeah we're not we are an airing

[00:20:27] at the same time as we're writing necessarily that season right so you know the previous season

[00:20:34] errors and we get reactions from that and that might inform us in some ways and some things could

[00:20:40] adjust lightly off of the reaction to the previous season but you know what you once you're

[00:20:46] committed and you you're in a vacuum you know literally that first season was like we created it

[00:20:52] we liked it it looked great to us but we didn't know what the audience was going to feel on and how

[00:20:59] they would react I mean we were well into production late production of season two when season one

[00:21:09] aired so like you know many of those scripts had already been written and in fact I want to say

[00:21:16] like I was in the middle of production of episode eight maybe when season one aired like that's how

[00:21:22] the timeline is a little like so so creating two seasons of television almost in this semi vacuum

[00:21:29] of experience and just hoping that we're gonna touch people in the way we like to be you know

[00:21:37] moved around emotionally and what is cool for us is going to be cool for the audience we hope you

[00:21:43] know and that's sometimes we get it right and sometimes we upset people and that's just the nature

[00:21:48] of it and you could do that even if you're writing and you're with airing you know and one of the

[00:21:54] strengths of the show in my opinion is how quickly I became attached to the characters

[00:22:03] I just felt like like that is something the writers deserve such high props for is in the actors

[00:22:10] too I mean they absolutely have to play it well too but I just the characters are so interesting

[00:22:19] and the characters we know like a hurrah are different enough but still there's the essence there

[00:22:27] they've done right the writing in the actors doing all that together it's just it that's one of

[00:22:33] the things that really impress me the most about the show it looks fantastic the production value is

[00:22:38] incredible but yeah it's got the it's got the feel that Star Trek fans I mean well

[00:22:48] you've been waiting for it for a little while thank you for that and um you know I come from

[00:22:55] supernatural as you mentioned and that was a show where I learned for me that

[00:23:02] yeah this show is cool and fun it has monsters in it but um people really love the relationship

[00:23:08] between the brothers and the angels and the demons that are in their lives and the car you know

[00:23:14] and so it's really about these personal collections that that that you develop and all the other

[00:23:19] writers the shows they come on they've learned that at same lesson so for us it was like let's

[00:23:25] make sure we're servicing the characters and then make sure our episodic stories are from a

[00:23:31] perspective of one of our characters and so we could be with them on this journey and we sort of feel

[00:23:36] feel their closeness um all of the actors on the cast are amazing and bringing these characters to

[00:23:43] life and in viewing them with them themselves and a lot of our writing you know we're tapping into

[00:23:50] these personal places and um you know each of us is kind of putting a piece of ourselves in them so

[00:23:57] that when they do come to life hopefully like you mentioned the people respond because there's

[00:24:01] something true about what you're what you're being connected to you know well I have to say that

[00:24:06] the the team that shows the actors for this series picked great actors to portray unique and

[00:24:17] you know memorable characters from Star Trek lore and have done it very very well I mean even to

[00:24:24] the point where I remember reading and saying that you chose a Scottish actor to play

[00:24:29] a Scottish and I think that's that shows that but but even so everyone of your characters are so

[00:24:36] likable and here's the really weird one you're reimagining of James T Kirk it's so damn good

[00:24:46] it works it works it works I mean I like him even more than Shatton your I like him even more than

[00:24:53] the first time yes I like him I like that you yes I love the way you wrote it the acolyte come on

[00:25:00] tomorrow tomorrow tomorrow oh great him at his best he made him so human well you know

[00:25:09] he's so likable it's funny that you mentioned that because a lot of times when we try to you

[00:25:16] bring characters to life or a storyline to life that is gonna touch on very established can in and

[00:25:22] very personal feelings for people in the fandom we kind of just go back to the source and we

[00:25:28] try to go back to the original intentions that we think the creators had and we talked a lot about

[00:25:35] young James Kirk and and and he's how people talk about the character and how he was actually

[00:25:41] portrayed when you watch the episodes you know in the 70s and throughout the 80s and 90s he got

[00:25:48] the the reputation of oh well Kirk's always kissing the alien or he's the guy with the swagger and

[00:25:53] we we make jokes light jokes about that but the reality is in the series he was always talked

[00:25:58] about oh he was bookish oh he was the overachiever oh and then you watch those some of those

[00:26:05] episodes and he's always trying to find a path to empathy and he's very likable and he is charming

[00:26:12] that's why he gets to kiss the alien because he's just naturally charming so we focused it more

[00:26:17] on the who is this character not who you think the character is but who is the character really how

[00:26:23] was he created design how was he written and what is our our reason for bringing them on and how are

[00:26:31] we gonna do that you know what I mean because you could just very easily have we could just write

[00:26:37] the jokie oh he's always trying to hit on the people and he's that's what he is but that's such a

[00:26:42] a one note take on the character that we were like no let's flesh him out let's and he's younger

[00:26:47] he's not a cat yeah yeah how would this character be influenced by our captain pike of the

[00:26:55] enterprise and our yeah you know the crew people that are being populated the enterprise right now

[00:27:03] yeah so in tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow in that one to me he was most like the original

[00:27:11] 1960s Kirk more than any other time we see him in the series I think that's that's true

[00:27:17] and I think there was a lot of conversation about trying to channel even you know you know

[00:27:24] in season two and in that episode and then the one with her at the space station we were like

[00:27:31] we made some light humor about his reputation but it was like he was the one who believed her

[00:27:37] he was the one that was willing to think out of the box he was the one who actually sort of

[00:27:40] empowered her to go through that journey that she was on um all simply because he saw someone

[00:27:47] and he needed help and he wanted to be helpful you know what I mean but even so your actress who plays

[00:27:53] the word is so wonderful she's so sweet and she is playing a really well established and iconic

[00:28:03] character and who was played by a remarkable actress so to step into those shoes it's almost like

[00:28:09] you know Zachary Kinto going oh yeah I got to play the famous character of all Star Trek

[00:28:17] and I got to play opposite him in the same move right right yeah I'm sure that was not daunting at all

[00:28:24] no yeah so I mean you you to do that and to come across and to make her so likable well she's

[00:28:31] she really is it's very talented and and a total pro and I think um we had conversations and

[00:28:37] season one about where her character is at and I think she embodied that so greatly because

[00:28:45] it was yes everybody knows and appreciates and um you know or uh how we say it wrong uh Huda um

[00:28:55] like whoever's I think all of us would say differently right

[00:28:59] and I think we should have seen the same sentence I could say your hurra uh uh and I get

[00:29:05] crap for it all the time because I shouldn't I should be one of the people who can say it

[00:29:09] and pronounce it accurately every time and I don't know why I can't but anyway circle back to the

[00:29:16] actual thing I was trying to say which was the character was seen as um a young person with

[00:29:22] greatness in them that needs to um find the path to allowing that greatness to come out you know

[00:29:30] and so and it wasn't about the like the insecurity of that because you could play that

[00:29:35] that's the sort of the one note but it was the like and also the other spectrum of the I'm so

[00:29:40] great at everything right away and that's also not an interesting thing it's more like

[00:29:46] you're you are a character with greatness in them but you haven't realized it yet but you know

[00:29:52] it's there and so and and other people realize it and it's how do you foster that greatness

[00:29:58] without letting it sort of like pressure you and feel a certain way you know

[00:30:03] Chris you've been the quietest of the bunch will you have any questions go ahead my friend

[00:30:08] so I'm trying to jump in a couple of times yes please do

[00:30:11] I've got a lot you gotta cut me off from supergareless yeah so I you sort of touched on this

[00:30:16] with the various characters but I'm just wondering just because I think like

[00:30:21] this feels like it's it's such an amazing show in that it feels like the original series

[00:30:26] but it also feels very modern and it feels like this is what they would have done as you said

[00:30:31] earlier like this is how they would have made your original series if Star Trek only came out

[00:30:36] you know in 2022 instead of the 60s how did you so how have you been able to manage making it feel

[00:30:45] like original series but also making it feel like a modern show that doesn't go too lean too

[00:30:53] differently from the original series sure I mean it's a hard balance you know I have to really

[00:30:58] give a lot of credit to a cubic Oldsmann and Henry Lanzel Myers for setting that

[00:31:05] as a North Star kind of thing in season one and also Jonathan our production designer and

[00:31:12] costumes hair everybody is sort of a full court press about the look of the show the props

[00:31:21] and you know everyone's a fan and we'll pull a screen grab from an old episode and be like hey

[00:31:28] this is what it look like in the 60s let's make our version of this and you know so balancing

[00:31:36] the look and the feel I think is a lot of the world itself you know right down to the costumes

[00:31:43] and how can we make them have that classic feel but still feel modern and not silly

[00:31:51] and then the stories themselves you know I could say for me I like to watch a lot of all the series

[00:32:00] you know TNG and TOS in particular and kind of tap into that episodic story and how they maybe

[00:32:08] approached a topic of their day and and how can we approach a topic of our day and not to totally

[00:32:16] reimagine and think that I'm going to create something holy new that's never been told before

[00:32:21] but how would we tell it our way you know what I mean and how do we some tales are unfortunately

[00:32:29] classic and some morals are not learned so you have to keep reminding people about tolerance

[00:32:37] about peace about the things that scare us can sometimes make us stronger you know those

[00:32:44] things are people in humanity have been telling their stories just the cave dwelling days and I'm

[00:32:50] not going to come up with a new story but I can come up with a new way of telling it that is

[00:32:55] going to interest you because it's this world that you love and these characters that you love

[00:33:00] and I kind of went a little esoteric there but that's kind of that is my personal process

[00:33:04] and I actually think a lot of the Twilight Zone I love the Twilight Zone and I'm like what would

[00:33:10] the Twilight Zone episode be well with the what would the interesting take on this be that makes

[00:33:16] you go oh I didn't think of it that way or oh that's I'm a slightly uncomfortable about this

[00:33:22] but I'm interested you know is there I'm sorry Steve no good is there has there been anything

[00:33:31] in the course of seasons one and two that has surprised you that either the writing team went

[00:33:38] there or the show went that direction or maybe it's a character arc or something is there anything

[00:33:44] or maybe maybe a better way to ask it surprise or just that you particularly really loved maybe

[00:33:50] well I mean I think there's it's both and it's interesting because it's an episode I wrote I think the

[00:33:59] I mean all of season two had surprising things you know the animated crossover obviously not

[00:34:04] when I wrote but I was just surprised we were able to go there and that's always fun the musical

[00:34:09] was such a great you know that we really crossed into a genre that hadn't gone before but the one

[00:34:14] that really like because I was so inside of it was the Joseph and Benga backstory and how this

[00:34:23] character who's a beloved doctor and is it kind of up to that episode feels like a moral center

[00:34:30] of the ship and then you learn that he's a combat veteran with with a bunch of confirmed kills

[00:34:36] that might not have left the war behind you know and so I really when we were like we're going to

[00:34:45] tell this story I wanted to do it as much justice as possible and I did a lot of reading I did a lot

[00:34:52] of documentary watching and I talked to combat veterans and at every step of the way I was like

[00:35:01] I didn't really get to let up this to this are they really gonna let us tell this are they're

[00:35:06] gonna say we can't make the doctor be this will air as because you know I come from network and

[00:35:11] you often get at the note kind of early or sometimes late in the game we don't want to dislike

[00:35:16] our character we can't tell the story with this character so it was a hard thing to have your

[00:35:24] character do something made people uncomfortable but still kind of on their side at the end or at

[00:35:30] least understand why they were on that side that they were on it even if you weren't on that side

[00:35:36] with I could tell you when I watched it all I could think back was a TV show mash and every time

[00:35:44] the transport was a incoming transport and all I could think about radar righty lia incoming yeah

[00:35:51] oh I know oh my god you have you've got the mobile army surgical team right there it was just

[00:36:00] it was remarkable I have no shame I have no shame saying I watched a lot of mash when I was

[00:36:05] writing that because you know like I like I just alluded to like stories have been told before

[00:36:11] people have figured out certain things that are effective and as a creative person you know I

[00:36:18] I know the limitations of my own experiences so I have to research I have to watch I have to

[00:36:24] be inspired I have to pull from things and when I was watching mash I was eight it was two reasons

[00:36:29] it was like how do I keep it interesting and engaging but also like really have a little gut punch

[00:36:35] in there for you yeah and you know I had I had about 20 minutes to tell that war storyline and

[00:36:41] guess what mash episodes were about 22 minutes yes so like what would a mash episode structure be

[00:36:47] it's funny and light but it's also got these dark things and obviously mine wasn't as funny

[00:36:51] and light but I got to create a character that you kind of was quirky with when Howard

[00:36:57] and so as I was watching it I just became like very conscious of that repetitive thing and then

[00:37:03] it really hit home when I was watching I think there's a show called combat rescue

[00:37:07] that's on lifetime or one of those reality things and what they had it was in an

[00:37:14] Afghanistan I believe and it was about these combat medics in Afghanistan and anytime they had

[00:37:20] to go out into the choppers and go pick up people they had a bull horn and it would say Leroy Jenkins

[00:37:28] all right Leroy Jenkins yeah and so yeah and it was this and at first it's funny the first time

[00:37:34] you hear it it's like oh right they're using Leroy Jenkins but after watching that show for a while

[00:37:39] and seeing the things like that Leroy Jenkins it was like oh god and it weighed on me it became

[00:37:45] a horror to hear that and I was like how do I channel that emotional like just that sound is

[00:37:51] evoking this dread and just please stop because I know that that means young people are dying you know

[00:37:57] yeah so one of the things I think you completely nailed it with this because I've dealt with

[00:38:03] several friends and other relatives who have struggled with PTSD from combat and non-combat

[00:38:10] situations in the military is you completely nailed the sense of they are unable to talk to those

[00:38:20] of us who have not experienced it like hit that that that got as because I'm one of those people who

[00:38:27] they can't talk to you know when the fear should be able to so you completely nailed that

[00:38:35] that was amazing thank you and it's funny I take great pride in that and I feel

[00:38:43] honored to get that compliment and I got a lot of messages actually from people asking me

[00:38:48] were you in combat how did you know were you there or did you know someone who's there

[00:38:53] and it's the irony as not even irony it's not that I were but the truth of the matter is

[00:39:01] like I said we often tap into our personal lives I have PTSD from childhood trauma

[00:39:07] and so I could tell a story about PTSD about what I know to be my experience with PTSD

[00:39:15] and just ordered over to it but at the same time I do not know what combat is like I say

[00:39:20] that front and center it is a different experience but I will research and I will talk to people

[00:39:25] I will be informed I will try to get as close as possible but when you're talking about the human

[00:39:30] experience of dealing with trauma I know some things about that and that's where it got personal

[00:39:37] and I have been that person who cannot share and I have burned that person who looks to

[00:39:43] alcohol for relief or as a sudden burst of anger and then having to not be able to explain

[00:39:51] what that came from so that was a very personal story that I was channeling into the writer and

[00:39:58] then just put the layer of combat of veteran on that you know what I mean yeah there's something

[00:40:05] therapeutic that art like a show like this can do for people there's there's a type of it's not

[00:40:15] that it's the answer and healing is completed when you watch a TV show that talks about this

[00:40:22] but I know some people too that are Star Trek fans that have seen combat that saw that episode

[00:40:28] or just like they nailed it it was on but and it's in but it was done tastefully it was done very

[00:40:34] respectfully as well and so I think hopefully that's what any person that's been in combat could

[00:40:44] say that hey that that honored yeah and then went through you know and that's where I take

[00:40:51] I find that to be the best compliment you know right right I don't really I don't know what the

[00:40:56] critics might say about it I don't know what you know if you're if you're busting on me because the

[00:41:01] Klingons don't look like the way you like Klingons but if the people that have that real experience

[00:41:07] could say well that was actually you know and for being a war in space in an imaginary sector of a

[00:41:13] galaxy for them to say that's what it was out like for me that's a huge compliment and I you know

[00:41:20] I read the things they carried which was about Vietnam I read the the Coit the Coat of Myer

[00:41:26] biography that was about Afghanistan I was watching he said I was feeling and like for months and

[00:41:32] like to the point where like after the production of that episode and through the rhymes I needed

[00:41:40] to break I was like yeah I completely took my family to San Diego on a little in a resort week

[00:41:48] and unplugged and I you know in the middle of production of I think the musical which came

[00:41:57] after I was like you guys are going to go singing in space I just came out of Jigal

[00:42:02] I'm going to go to Legoland and see world and hang out in Carl's Bad with my family because it

[00:42:12] was living in me in such a way you know you know we did a review of second season on this show

[00:42:20] we talked about it and I said that this second season truly was strange new worlds because

[00:42:29] you ex you delved into doing Star Trek in a different way and either was a beautiful crossover

[00:42:37] episode with lower decks which was just just absolutely fantastic and they had so much fun

[00:42:44] doing that and then doing something like subspace rhapsody you know not I kept thinking going back to

[00:42:52] the Buffy episode where there's a musical which is acclaimed and I can listen to the music

[00:43:00] any day and the same smile comes to my face when I hear it because it's just who came up with

[00:43:09] the idea to do that I mean when I'm asking maybe that was look I mean it's hard to nail it

[00:43:17] to like an individual because at the beginning of this season like like I said we all the writers

[00:43:24] getting a room we talk about genres we talk about things you've done and I would honestly say that

[00:43:31] that might have even got thrown around season one is kind of like you know a half joke right

[00:43:37] a joke but not really in a second all joke pitches this is something Dana Horge and I always says

[00:43:41] all joke pitches become real pitches and then you know at the beginning of season two we talked

[00:43:48] about what genres haven't we done and you know what genres we want to do again and you know

[00:43:54] we we did talk you know Henry and Lonzo Myers has done musicals on the magicians and supernatural

[00:44:00] has done a musical so we knew that the musical was a format that television does what the Buffy

[00:44:05] episode and so on to the two yeah the flash and the the thing that you mentioned though about how

[00:44:13] beloved the Buffy episode was is like that was the bar right if you're gonna do it you gotta have

[00:44:20] the story matter and not just be singing through the story and the song who got to be actually

[00:44:27] you know and this is where Dana who co-wrote that episode were built was very much kind of

[00:44:32] guiding that through the process and she was like the songs can't just be catchy for catchy

[00:44:38] sake in a real musical the song actually pushes the story forward and the scene is the song right

[00:44:46] the song actually has an arc and it you like you start it and you're in one place and by the end

[00:44:51] you're like you're in another place and and and she was the perfect person to be quarterbacking

[00:44:57] that experience and you know I was like great you guys you guys got the musical I've got

[00:45:04] clinging on you know killing people and you know uh and the other one that co-wrote co-wrote with

[00:45:11] Kirsten Byer I really really do like the the Lotus Eaters one quite a bit because you're

[00:45:20] going back to Rydall 7 which is a part of Pike's Canon you're sort of

[00:45:23] modern that was cool yeah it was like a piece of the cage you're kind of modernizing for our

[00:45:29] our audiences and then your like in that was this opportunity to do this the twilight zone

[00:45:37] for me like what is the like little moral story that's underneath everything it's not like hitting

[00:45:42] you in the face but it's there it's it's a it's a a cast society of the haves and have nots it

[00:45:50] just have memories and have nots memories instead of you know money and so there was this cool world

[00:45:56] building thing I'm like you could watch it and enjoy it and never get that from it and just be

[00:46:00] this oh this cool sci-fi world had this weird planet experience or you could watch it and be like oh

[00:46:05] they're commenting on disparity and what does that mean you know the right yeah do you have a

[00:46:12] okay Chris go Chris do you have a specific process when you sit down to write an episode so not

[00:46:18] when you're necessarily breaking with other writers but when you're by yourself and you have your

[00:46:23] computer open um I feel like I used to have a conscious process and now I have a shit it's due

[00:46:31] and I gotta sit here and get it done

[00:46:41] but to be fair to your question I think I can probably do that because of a process that I

[00:46:47] engaged with that has now become like repetitious for me it's like going to the basketball court

[00:46:53] have it and shooting and shooting free throws right and then now I don't got to think about the

[00:46:57] free throw and so um if I can sort of recall the process for me you know the outline is there

[00:47:07] right the outline has been done and the outline is the road map I know that this is the order of

[00:47:12] events and so I just go in and I say okay this was the promise we promised them this scene

[00:47:22] but I know from experience that you don't just make your character say these words and that makes

[00:47:27] a scene that just makes an outline that people are talking about out loud so you still have to go

[00:47:35] and and say where is the activities and points of view that these characters have that make it a

[00:47:43] scene and sometimes it's not even there sometimes it's um and this was a lesson I learned

[00:47:49] at Supernatural was like you know at the beginning of every episode they catch a case

[00:47:55] they they're oh this monster killed somebody in in Iowa right how do you make that interesting for

[00:48:03] 350 episodes well you find something for them to do Dean's cooking eggs uh

[00:48:11] Sam's um trying to paint something or the cars broken so you're like the scene is actually now

[00:48:18] this activity so I think about who's doing something and who wants something which is an old

[00:48:23] acting exercise and it's not even like the words of the like this has to be the moment that

[00:48:30] pike confronts lawn about something and that's just a scene I pulled out of my butt whatever

[00:48:35] but how can I make that like if the story has already evolved to a point that we know

[00:48:43] with their up to oh this person's investigating and this person want answers that's one thing

[00:48:48] but if you're just flat and coming in you're like well I got to make this something I got to make

[00:48:53] this uh you know lawns on the way of the gym and pike needs to get this answer because

[00:49:00] Starfleet command asked him to you know and that's not in the outline the outline was Pike is asking

[00:49:06] lawn some questions and and so you kind of you you it's for me it's like bringing the characters

[00:49:12] to life what is the character gonna where are they coming from and that that's all my acting

[00:49:18] background where are they coming from what do they want how do they feel and then I kind of left

[00:49:23] them talk to each other and then they start saying things and that sounds cool and oh they're talking

[00:49:28] too much like take some of that away you know um are there characters that you find easier to write

[00:49:34] their dialogue versus harder like ones that the voices come that more naturally to you or ones

[00:49:39] apart I mean by this current season that shall not be named um season three uh it's sort of a habit

[00:49:47] it's sort of like a you know at the beginning I knew what Spock sounded like and I had a feeling

[00:49:54] of what Pike might sound like and Chapel and and the Hurrah maybe kind of um Ginga it was just

[00:50:03] sort of finding the archetype of you know oddly enough I knew Hammer because that you know we were

[00:50:08] talking before the podcast role um he's an engineer and a mentor and my older brothers and engineer

[00:50:15] and was a mentor to me so I knew what I wanted that character to sound like at least for me when

[00:50:22] I wrote him you know he might be written a little differently in other episodes but for me I was

[00:50:26] like this is my brother uh and so even the line about you know an engineer's tools are his mind

[00:50:35] in his hands um I think uh I had co-written that with Bo and I think the line he had in there

[00:50:40] was engineers tools are his his hands and I was like no I know my brother his best tool is his mind

[00:50:47] and so it was just like little things like that that I was like just wanting to make sure I I brought

[00:50:53] some point of view to it you know yeah in speaking of Hammer uh I just again watching that episode

[00:51:04] originally episode nine of season one um when I realized what was happening I was like

[00:51:13] you know devastated as I could be watching uh show but at the same time it was so beautiful it was just

[00:51:21] it was so well done and set up and we just cared deeply I mean even in that episode I think there

[00:51:30] was in my opinion a lot watching it just recently again uh there was a lot done even in that

[00:51:36] episode that made me like him or even more so that the impact of him dying was even more effective

[00:51:47] yeah yeah it was a rough day I couldn't see that I fell asleep just fine but I kept waking up I

[00:51:54] get to invent said I kept waking up he like oh no hemmers dead but it's made for a good podcast afterwards

[00:52:00] I was I'm cracking it uh I'm sorry I'm delighted at paint time yeah right yeah well like you know

[00:52:06] again it's like how do you how do you make people fall in love with the character with the

[00:52:12] limited amount of time you know and and Bruce was a big part of that yeah or I can body this

[00:52:17] character and we showed him playful and then um the pilot I believe or or maybe it was a second

[00:52:24] episode the the scene where her has to do the captains dinner yeah you got to see got a little bit

[00:52:29] playful side and then in four years good um you know we we kind of wanted to do the um

[00:52:37] the grumpy person that you have to earn their respect right and so he was kind of like down

[00:52:41] hundred percent bit but then they kind of like you know and that was like total submarine movie 101

[00:52:48] it was like the sergeant and the private and the sergeants you know hard on you but then the end

[00:52:54] of you know giving you the best recommendation that you could imagine and so there was a little

[00:52:59] bit of that leaning into that and then it was at nine in particular because we were like well we are

[00:53:05] we are going to kill him this episode and it was the end of the season and it was like we're

[00:53:11] it just so happened that it weed so great greatly great it weed so greatly with her

[00:53:19] own arc of having to find her place here and to have the person who you kind of like well I'm

[00:53:26] flipping with you and you're the fun wippy person to be like I'm gonna I'm gonna talk to you in a

[00:53:31] real way like I see this need in you I'm gonna call you out on it and and then in tapping into

[00:53:38] your vulnerability then I'm gonna die you know yeah and then that scene like there was a lot of

[00:53:46] permeations of that scene and it was just getting it right and how much is too little how much is too

[00:53:51] yeah late and and um a couple things we're working for us there like uh again wrath of con the

[00:54:00] the scene of spock giving himself sacrifice total call back to that and then the words that he spoke

[00:54:08] was advice my brother gave me in reality wow when I was a young man and feeling uh alone

[00:54:16] in the in the world and he he he's got a very successful marriage and he has kids before me much

[00:54:24] much younger than than mean when he started his family and and that that idea of you know hey just

[00:54:33] find find a home find a person you can fall if he was telling me about relationship advice but I

[00:54:39] took that and I how do I take that nugget and make it a little bit more broader and make it

[00:54:42] more specific for her but the the idea of making a home for yourself and you'll be happier than you are

[00:54:49] um sad was it was totally generally made by the role wow that's great that's right engineers give

[00:54:56] the grade the best advice they do and they're always the ones party then hang out with he's he's

[00:55:01] much more fun than I am well you know because again that all came as an engineer the mentor relationship

[00:55:09] also came true because that is a very big part of engineering and it is something that we we discuss

[00:55:14] discuss all the time to try to especially the the team that I've been working with for the last few

[00:55:20] years a lot of you know I've been watching my mentors there they've been retiring the last few years

[00:55:26] in fact one of them you know when I when I lamented his retirement he was like well you know because

[00:55:31] I'm like well who's you know going to be the adults around now and he's like well adina you're the

[00:55:36] adult now yeah what I still need adults your adults around like the reality is you know I've been kind

[00:55:43] of a mentor in in that role as you know other people at my level that's just what we do that is

[00:55:48] part of the process you don't you don't you only learn so much in school most of it is on the job

[00:55:54] and what you what you learned from your mentor elders in the workplace so yeah a lot of that

[00:56:00] you know rang true well I'm glad and so now you see where I got it from and yeah that makes sense

[00:56:07] and I think a lot of people can probably at least in some certain fields it's true creative

[00:56:13] fields too like you you you can only learn what which you can by making some mistakes

[00:56:21] and then there's hopefully people that are above you in a little bit more season that have made

[00:56:25] those mistakes already and can say wait you might want to look at it this way or let me say

[00:56:30] if you said the time or you're not going to learn it unless you make the mistakes so go ahead

[00:56:34] you know and all of that is is that mentorship journey you know yeah then can I ask a question

[00:56:40] with regard to season the episode nine which is I'm I want to watch it again in again

[00:56:46] in been a while since I've seen it and I assume that as you say other things influence your writing

[00:56:53] and bring those forward and things like that and when I'm watching it episode I am seeing so much

[00:57:00] of aliens in it the movie the the child that's the only the survivor the young girls only

[00:57:07] survivor you have the creatures being born out of someone who's a host um you see Sam Kirk acting so

[00:57:17] much like Bill Paxton's character of overreacting and getting so yeah you know no we're going to

[00:57:24] die are all going to die you know and I just did that and I again no one steals because

[00:57:32] better than James Cameron he's the greatest stealer right but do I have aomes and things like that

[00:57:38] does that get into your mind going you know these are really good I couldn't I couldn't sit here with

[00:57:44] the straight face and say no you know okay because like clearly you know alien and aliens were

[00:57:51] movies of my childhood that I absolutely love and I'm a big Ridley Scott fan and it you know

[00:57:57] it's kind of hard to you're gonna do horror in space so it's kind of hard not to evoke those things

[00:58:05] we had talked about you know how do lizards procreate and how do we want to make these things

[00:58:11] you know the body horror was a big and so there was a Kayla Cooper had this clip that she showed us

[00:58:17] of these these frogs leaping out of the back of another frog like the eggs around so that's where

[00:58:23] that idea kind of came from okay but then it was like well this does feel like alien and how much

[00:58:28] do we like swerve into this kid and how much do we not but there was other films that I definitely

[00:58:34] would only from um you know people don't don't always mention this one but Gremlins you know

[00:58:41] oh my god yeah yeah any monsters wreaking havoc around you and freaking you out and you know

[00:58:48] they're you know the the whole sequence of chapel in the lab and they're all over her is Gremlins right

[00:58:55] yeah and then um also the thing you know the John Carpenter froze in landscape and and the horror

[00:59:04] of um you know just this this intense you know survival and where it's around the corner and so

[00:59:11] there was a couple absolute influences that were just seeping and yeah look we have

[00:59:19] 50 minutes to tell a story that people have told in two hours so what are some what are some

[00:59:25] shorthands and I'm sorry what are some shortcuts that are just going to get people to understand

[00:59:30] right away what what's happening and what's going on and um and we did we knew we're like we're

[00:59:36] putting this little girl here this is this is you know newt like should are we being stupid for doing

[00:59:42] this but ultimately the story was about lawn and lawn was a little girl when she was on a

[00:59:48] long bean planet and so it was like look sure yes echoes and shades and it's very parallel

[00:59:55] but this very specifically calls back to lawn and that's why we decided yes we need to do it

[01:00:03] this way you know now it worked perfectly and and just I mean it was the right level of terror that

[01:00:09] was needed and then we get into episode 10 of season two and you go holy moly you really pushed

[01:00:17] going to like oh these things are evil yeah right and at this phase in our canon they

[01:00:24] they can be that for us right because we not until Kirk has to be stranded on you know

[01:00:30] zest on it's not zestis but the planet just beyond zestis with a gorn do we learn to maybe

[01:00:37] empathize with them right now they are the unknown and the thing is more scarier than the unknown

[01:00:43] and and it keep it had a real strong vision for this in particular because he said and he's

[01:00:50] he's correct trek always teaches you to identify with your enemy trek always teaches you that

[01:00:55] everything can be worked out that we just need to find our common ground and he's like how do you

[01:01:01] do that when you are faced with something so unknown and so foreign that you just cannot find

[01:01:07] the common ground right now and so that was like in its concept of how to write that that's why

[01:01:13] we didn't see them at all in that first episode because they we would identify with them too much

[01:01:18] if we got to see them just they're just the things in that ship that one is dead you know

[01:01:24] and we hear them and we know they're out there but it's just you know the unknown enemy the

[01:01:29] unseen enemy it's terrifying because you don't know what you're dealing with it and accept

[01:01:35] one person and she's the she did it as a child and she had those nightmares those monsters

[01:01:40] and she's telling you you can't reason with them yeah and so you're only you're reliable

[01:01:47] quote unquote maybe unreliable because of experience person is telling you don't bother talking to them

[01:01:53] and so okay well so what do we do we run you know yeah yeah I have a general comment I'm a music

[01:02:01] I love talking about music compositions especially with track I think Star Trek has a rich

[01:02:07] in vast history of fantastic music associated with it and to put that into kind of the realm of

[01:02:17] writing I really feel like strange new worlds on season one and two is just is this beautiful symphony

[01:02:26] of different movements and pieces and adventures we get to go on like we would some of the great symphonies

[01:02:35] or a great musical score of a film we love that we really I just want to say kudos to you and

[01:02:43] the rest of the team like it's just we went on such a journey and it was thank you it was fun

[01:02:48] and it in episodes were different from each other well I mean that's that was our composer right

[01:02:54] it's not me that's Jeff it's it's like there is conversation of evoking themes that we are

[01:03:02] familiar with and using those and then also the genre helps right this is a genre what is the

[01:03:09] music that is best in that genre when is it a sweeping adventure when is it a a slightly more

[01:03:16] melodic moral tale you know right yeah well I'm very happy that they decided to

[01:03:23] at the end of season one of discovery decided to bring back the Enterprise captain pike

[01:03:30] number one these characters and the fact that they decided you know what this came out so well

[01:03:37] we ought to make our own TV series about it and how we get we're lucky to have gotten strange new

[01:03:45] worlds to watch well well thank you thank you and I think probably the in addition to that one of

[01:03:53] the best decisions that was made in the inception phase before I even got on board was to make it an

[01:04:00] episodic show and let you have a one week adventure let you fall in love with characters who will

[01:04:07] evolve over the course of these 10 adventures but like to give you the self contained I think that

[01:04:14] actually has a lot of good will for all these comments we get about you evoke it so well the classic

[01:04:19] tricks so well because classic trick was this little hour that you got and you were told a premise

[01:04:26] that then kind of resolved itself however that happens by the end and that I think was a huge

[01:04:35] value as and part of the reason I think for the success that we enjoy is to be able it makes things

[01:04:43] easier and it makes something harder you know it's a different type of storytelling you know

[01:04:49] you can't lean on four episodes of you know building to a thing that then you're so invested too

[01:04:56] like you have to really get people invested in that you know I'm beef amount of time that you

[01:05:02] have for your setup but the payoff is great because at the end you feel like I understood what that

[01:05:08] episode was and why they did it and whether you liked it or not another story you know yeah because to

[01:05:13] me you if you seem to have captured the best of both worlds where you have every episode is

[01:05:19] essentially self contained there's a story it results itself and then you go into the next one

[01:05:24] but you still have a through line you still have like dealing with his future trauma you still have

[01:05:30] all the other characters and their story lines but like balance in such a way that it's

[01:05:36] not favoring what like it's obviously favoring favoring

[01:05:42] standalone but it's not to the detriment of while I wish these characters would change

[01:05:48] right i think that's just what a perfect balance well thank you yeah but that was also part of

[01:05:53] the design it was like you know episodic stories and serialized character arcs you know and that

[01:06:00] that was very much intentional and you don't want your characters to have an Asia and not have had

[01:06:07] the experience of two weeks ago but at the same time like much like in life we're not always talking

[01:06:13] about the thing that's on our mind and so you don't have to be like re-create constantly having

[01:06:19] scenes about a thing it wasn't like lawn in season one every episode was like oh that Gorn

[01:06:25] breeding planet or oh my god the Gorn are gonna come get me someday it was established there was

[01:06:30] an adventure about that it was kind of in the background and then an adventure really brought

[01:06:36] it to the fore and and you know same with Pike it was the oh I know my destiny is it's gonna make

[01:06:43] me a good captain or not none of that matters i'm just gonna have the time that I have it's on

[01:06:49] in some line it's on his mind and then in the finale it's like oh you haven't really fully resolve

[01:06:54] this and here's a whole story about that and so you you couldn't have had that finale if you didn't

[01:06:59] understand the character maybe but you could have still had that finale because you could just set up

[01:07:06] your future self is coming and you're about to make a mistake and here's a lesson about making

[01:07:09] that mistake you know when you're in the writing room with your fellow writers and you're working

[01:07:16] on a script or you have written a script does it go around the room like when you wrote

[01:07:22] your the fourth episode of season one did the script go around the room and do they all go

[01:07:28] yeah Davie this is just beautiful let's just put on the refrigerator because it's perfect it's

[01:07:33] there's nothing wrong with it at all or do they go do they each import a little advice to you

[01:07:41] and then you go you know you're right and i'm gonna change that because this is what the character

[01:07:45] should have done or would do or yeah um well i you know it's interesting because i'm

[01:07:52] at the upper levels a little bit so and even with the lower level i i shouldn't quantify that

[01:07:58] with you know all writers are talented and they're all in a journey but it doesn't really go around

[01:08:03] robin what kind of happens is that the script comes out and everybody reads it

[01:08:08] and then like a few people will come and say really liked it but there's this one moment that

[01:08:15] you know i thought this could be a funny joke there or hey i was reading it and you kind of got me

[01:08:19] confused here and so these these sort of ad hoc things happen but like with me i would get

[01:08:28] specifically notes from handry and kiva right because they were the the writers okay right

[01:08:34] yeah so they would say we read it here's some of the changes that we think would make it better

[01:08:39] some of the things that we were expecting that didn't happen or hey you gave us exactly what

[01:08:43] we expected but it doesn't work and so that process kind of you know the notes from above that

[01:08:49] that that still happens you know and then we handed to our you know production partners that

[01:08:55] secret hideout and they won't give their round of thoughts and then we handed to the studio in the

[01:08:59] network and so it all kind of spirals upwards um you certainly and then there's a table read

[01:09:06] and then after the table read actors will have questions hey i this line can i kind of felt plenty

[01:09:11] in my mouth and um and then you know the writers will have been on the table read and watched it or

[01:09:17] been in the room and said you know i didn't catch this before but now i'm gonna so it's constantly

[01:09:22] getting refined like you're not wholesale like pulling all these threads you know uh the bulk of the

[01:09:29] work is kind of done in the in the front half of it um and then it just goes through the pipeline

[01:09:36] of collaboration to just kind of be at the place the directors who come on will say look i have to

[01:09:42] shoot this um but you know what this location doesn't exist and we don't have it on a stage and

[01:09:48] could it move could it be this way it's easier for me to put the camera here or i had this great idea

[01:09:53] to emotionally make you feel something if i can do this but that means this line might not work

[01:09:58] so you're you're just working in that collaboration of everybody just trying to make it better

[01:10:05] so how does that dovetail with your role as a producer i mean is it a similar hat

[01:10:11] does it really a different hat that you wear it's it's a it's a similar so that yeah i mean look

[01:10:16] there's the writing phase where you put a bunch of things down on the fit page and then there's

[01:10:21] the producing phase where you're trying to bring those things to life and i i i i think i've

[01:10:27] done this enough to be able to decouple those two a little bit when you when you're kind of just

[01:10:35] getting to see some of the first things that you've written come to life there's a tendency to hold

[01:10:40] on to everything because you work so hard for it or because you know yeah or because you know like

[01:10:46] oh my god the studio really liked that moment or oh my god the the but then as you've done this

[01:10:51] enough and you've seen enough of these episodes go through the editing process and you've seen them

[01:10:56] goes from what they look like you realize that some fights are are not vanity in a i don't say but

[01:11:04] but they're just a it doesn't change the needle one way or the other and is this really the moment

[01:11:11] that i need to adjust um and then there's moments that that it is and you have to know the difference

[01:11:17] you know you have this is this important enough and sometimes it could be as simple as a word like

[01:11:22] uh they're using the wrong word does it have the same intention you know and it's a small thing but like

[01:11:29] saying uh someone was can do something versus someone is able to do something

[01:11:37] might have a different meaning in a scene and one might sound condescending and to so you'd

[01:11:42] see like a tiny little thing or it might not and you're just fine being the wrong fight you know and

[01:11:48] so that that muscle is very much the producer muscle also the like uh oh my god i'm watching this

[01:11:56] and this is too long and it read really great but like it's too long now do I tell the director to

[01:12:02] paste it up and make the actors rock faster or do I cut a few lines um you know

[01:12:08] so you are actually so you are there when they're filming the the episode you are there as executive

[01:12:13] producer and personally for the episodes i've written absolutely and then at times for

[01:12:21] helping out on other episodes um that that i'm sort of in that mentoring process or the writer

[01:12:27] couldn't be there for other reasons um and so you know who who's gonna pitch in so yes and and um

[01:12:35] you know the the the producing on set part of this you know it's interesting because it's a big

[01:12:41] when we met on the strike line right and that's a big part of what the guild was trying to bring back

[01:12:47] you know i have been fortunate in my experience in the broadcast circles and in the you know

[01:12:54] 22 episode full-order procedural circles to have had that experience to have had that sort of factory

[01:13:02] floor to have had the scene something go from idea to the edit bay to air um and there are lessons

[01:13:12] and skills that you just cannot learn unless you go through that process and so that's the guild

[01:13:19] was sort of trying to remind the industry that this is how television has been made for

[01:13:24] stekki it's literally and it's changed and guess what it's making things harder and more difficult

[01:13:31] and actually the your you're feeling it now too because there's this whole bunch of talented people

[01:13:37] that are missing out on part of their job you know what i mean yeah well that was a good question

[01:13:43] i i had written down that i was wanting to ask you was you know when i met you it was right in the

[01:13:48] heat of the the strike for both the writers and the actors and you were forbidden to talk or

[01:13:55] promote we couldn't ask you to be on the show at that time because you couldn't discuss

[01:14:00] blah blah as it was called at that time right start right how did what did you do during that

[01:14:07] period of time while the strike was going on how did you keep yourself in tuned i mean

[01:14:13] you know it's the offseason and i'm gonna go to the batting cage and keep you know working on my

[01:14:17] batting swing or i'm gonna keep throwing fastballs to keep myself tight i mean what did you do during

[01:14:24] the time that you were on strike i went camping a lot with my kids i went on some road trips

[01:14:32] i read some books and i kind of unplugged actually because i did i didn't eat a little bit

[01:14:38] of a break and but like the thing that i really impressed upon me that i really wanted to come back with

[01:14:47] is you know we are telling stories and we're hoping to tap into a human experience

[01:14:55] and if i'm living in a fictional head scape and i'm making stories just sort of

[01:15:02] i know this works paint by numbers i know i have to do this beat here i know that the act out

[01:15:06] has to be here and so i get to i might actually sort of start being circular and insular and being

[01:15:13] too formulaic so that time i really you know i really just said what is my experience of

[01:15:22] life with my kids and and how am i kind of being a family man where am i in the world i did

[01:15:29] i did a little bit of that artist introspectiveness to kind of reset myself creatively so that i don't

[01:15:35] come in going this is all gonna be this i know this is this move on and i really was like no no no

[01:15:42] what is the human experience what is the audience experience what is the thing that

[01:15:47] is gonna elevate this to be sane something um because you could forget those things and

[01:15:52] and because it is like we touched on earlier so much a repetition of form

[01:15:59] i don't want to lose why i'm doing the form why i'm what am i using the repetition for not just

[01:16:05] for its own sake you know i mean but you were excited to get back to back to writing when it was

[01:16:10] over with absolutely i mean to engage creatively and almost immediately once the strike ended

[01:16:19] you know it was thinking about star trek but also thinking about other stories that i might want

[01:16:23] to tell outside you know of of trek you know to be blasphemous for a second but you know uh just

[01:16:32] okay we like other things too yeah well you know yeah it's is it's ancillary not in not in

[01:16:40] not in replacement of um is there places where i can uh you know as i wait between the seasons

[01:16:49] do something and what would that be and and and and it kind of really fun interesting way

[01:16:56] i think what i found is you know i am a genre guy and i love that you know because there was a moment

[01:17:03] of like oh i got to tell i got to get back to straight ahead drama or real world uh what would

[01:17:09] my real world stories look like but then i sort of just really had the moment to be like you know

[01:17:14] what i found the wheelhouse sci-fi fantasy or it's a fun wheelhouse yeah there are different

[01:17:25] there are different types of those genres now it is not a bad word it is not a thing that only

[01:17:32] hacks do you know there's there's there's elevated there's pulp there's comedy within it and so

[01:17:38] i kind of found this niche of embracing the label of the you know if you look at the body of work

[01:17:47] like i deserve that label i that is that is kind of what i do does i mean i can't do the other things

[01:17:53] if something came along then i was really like ooh that's a detective story or oh i want to do that

[01:17:58] but you know i have a comfort zone i have a go-to place i clearly it's there and so don't fight that

[01:18:05] you know i mean is there a novel in you because we have a couple of novelists right here um i think

[01:18:13] there used to be one but i think there's like probably there's a tv show and a film in front of

[01:18:20] the novel you know what i mean there's there's other things that are like i think the novel is for

[01:18:25] like when i'm like i'm tired of being on set and being away from my family like i'm just gonna

[01:18:30] go away world and let me have six months you know maybe but but i think there's um

[01:18:36] you know i have directing aspirations and that's cool i think that's good now because

[01:18:42] because we've talked about that is that some people are just they're novelists and they're not

[01:18:47] script writers and some people are script writers and they're not novelists yeah i think i live in

[01:18:53] this cinematic world i think i live on the on the um i can be quick with a script i can be

[01:19:01] i can shorten i like if someone points out a story problem in a script i can fix that very quickly

[01:19:07] and turn that around i think a novel is is a unique great you know piece of literature and i would

[01:19:16] be so lost and i would be just me you know i'd write the 400 page or that makes no sense you know

[01:19:23] i think it's just that the having no sense of the process guidelines or boundaries i think

[01:19:29] with a script i know the limitations and then i also know like when to ignore those and just go for

[01:19:35] it because it that's the point of the story where you have to do that you know what i mean right now

[01:19:39] that's kind of funny that you say that um so i'm assuming you're familiar with the save the cat beat stuff

[01:19:44] yes i am yeah because that's actually what i use to write my novels is that that structure well

[01:19:50] and there's actually what so save the cat is a method or structure for structuring writing it came

[01:19:56] out of the film and TV industry but there's then an application of that and specifically someone wrote

[01:20:02] a book save the cat writes a novel oh yeah and that is after reading like a thousand different

[01:20:09] structure books and things like that the save the cat was the one that resonated the most i

[01:20:14] didn't i didn't really buy into save the cat i did the Sid field books i read when i was kind of

[01:20:21] really early in my process but then i i um i went to junior college and sent some some film courses

[01:20:27] and and was actually the thing that really worked well with me and actually worked great for television

[01:20:33] is what they call a real theory which is um and it goes back to the original films where eight

[01:20:40] minute reels and those eight minute reels had to because of the film stock literally it was a practical

[01:20:46] reason why shorts were eight minutes long and the first sort of features and we're talking silent

[01:20:53] black and white movies were basically eight minute reels that were played back to back to back and

[01:21:00] so you could have a half hour but it was really like four eight minute reels and because of the

[01:21:05] practical reason of having to take a reel off and put it back on every eight minutes was a mini

[01:21:11] little cliffhanger every eight minutes was like so every little eight minutes had to have a

[01:21:15] satisfying story and make you want to come back for more they're actually so that the eight minute

[01:21:22] real theory is basically as you're telling any cinematic story where are you in this story that

[01:21:28] like you're you're keeping them hooked but you got to where are you bringing them in and you know i

[01:21:33] i'm not so rigid i'm not going like oh shit it's page eight it's page sixteen but in television

[01:21:38] you have caked in act breaks you have those moments that you're what are you reeling people in

[01:21:43] and it goes back to you know we don't really have commercials and streaming we have ads

[01:21:49] but it in back in the day it was like and now we're gonna cut to the car commercials and you better

[01:21:54] come back and how are you not gonna change the channel and so yeah yeah yeah that theory of keeping

[01:21:59] them engaged keeping them interested and then oh keeping them what's the question they're asking

[01:22:05] that's gonna make them want to come back for the answer you know the the way again the three act

[01:22:10] story is you've got the first you know ten minutes of tv and then the next ten minutes and you know

[01:22:16] you and your break because and you've got a car commercial in between each one of those things

[01:22:19] to carry you in yeah it's like i know where i want to take you how do i keep you interested

[01:22:24] enough to take you to that one place well you're definitely doing it very well

[01:22:30] oh yes definitely so i have to ask a very go helpress please i have to ask a very selfish question

[01:22:37] because i'm going through film school right now and so i'm just curious for myself in anyone who's

[01:22:42] listening who's also maybe aspiring to direct or write what advice would you have for someone who's

[01:22:49] not in the industry but would like to get into the industry um do it just don't wait for someone

[01:22:57] to tell you to do it go and get if you could only if you could afford a cheap camera get a cheap

[01:23:05] camera used get an old uh and and just shoot stuff that you don't plan to show anybody you know shoot

[01:23:13] shoot shoot and and and i say this because it's the process i've done it's the process that i've seen

[01:23:18] very many successful people have done um and um you know i took college courses at a junior college

[01:23:26] because if you took the film classes you got access to their mini dvcams and so i got access

[01:23:32] to the mini dvcams and i did the course but i also made another short with their cameras you know

[01:23:37] and um i learned so much doing that and you could only learn by doing it and no one's

[01:23:44] ever going to tell you or give you permission and say oh you're ready now or oh yeah now's the

[01:23:49] time to do it um and um i wish i had kind of known that sooner i kind of felt it and i was doing

[01:23:55] intuitively like i was uh taking my parents camcorders and using my gijos to tell little cinematic stop

[01:24:04] action short films just because i wanted to to do that and i was um doing that just for fun

[01:24:10] and then as an adult like i was a struggling actor and the thing about being a struggling actor is

[01:24:17] you need people to hire you right same with the director you need someone to maybe give you money

[01:24:22] to make your short um as a writer you just need time and motivation and then

[01:24:27] i kind of realized as a director i i don't need money i could make low budget

[01:24:34] just for me just to put a camera in my hand just to know that if i look this way and then i try

[01:24:41] to edit it i cross the line and i did a mistake but that mistake cost me what like eight dollars of

[01:24:47] a vHS tape you know and so um i practice it's like practicing like if you want to you you

[01:24:53] you can't be a painter and not paint on canvas you know it doesn't mean you're going to get an

[01:24:58] expensive oil and go and get this big it just no but you're going to get a sketchbook and

[01:25:04] you're gonna practice and you're gonna practice so if you want to be a filmmaker and you want

[01:25:07] to do a cinematic story you've got to practice putting stories on screen you know

[01:25:12] and and and as hard as that might be to share with people or as hard as they might be to watch

[01:25:17] because you're like fuck i suck

[01:25:21] they're not for you know those first pieces aren't meant to be shared you know

[01:25:26] they're just like you know if you have an idea for a scene and you want to see what it looks

[01:25:30] like on screen and and here's the here's the other great part right actors want to act

[01:25:37] and there's acting school out there of all of these people who want experience and so if you find

[01:25:42] a group of people that's the other piece of advice find yourself a group of people that are

[01:25:47] want to have learning experiences and want to have fun doing this with you and that you're all

[01:25:53] kind of at the same level if someone's above you or someone below you it's going to be a little

[01:25:57] difficult but if everyone is kind of at your same level ground of trying to break in about to

[01:26:03] break in and just like hey you know i'll i want to do with a short on Saturday and it's going

[01:26:11] to be like four hours of work i'll buy a pizza we'll we'll we'll do a scene from your class

[01:26:17] or a scene that i wrote and you'll get to practice being on camera i'll get to be practicing where

[01:26:22] i put the camera i'll get to see how bad i am with the lights i rented or the lights i own

[01:26:27] yeah and and then shoot it and then while and try to edit it and then go god there's a lot i need

[01:26:34] to learn but i learned something the last time i want to try the next one to be a little better you know

[01:26:38] me that's fantastic yeah definitely yeah yeah thank you so much any other questions i mean we

[01:26:47] could go on for another couple hours i know i know you've been so wonderful i have a one but go

[01:26:54] ahead Chris one last question if we have time that's very hard of course i have to talk about this

[01:26:59] and ask this is on behalf of every Canadian what listing to this tomorrow and tomorrow what went

[01:27:07] into the process of deciding that it's going to be in Toronto because to me like nothing's ever everything

[01:27:14] that's filmed in Toronto is either New York or it's a Canadian show right to have an American show

[01:27:19] like Star Trek it be filmed in Toronto and have it be Toronto was like a huge moment it's i'm glad

[01:27:25] and i'm glad and it's funny because it was and this is maybe telling a little bit of the where

[01:27:31] the bodies are buried it was in its inception also good movie um very good going to be in New York

[01:27:40] and we were like hey we could shoot Toronto as New York and maybe the Brooklyn Bridge is blown up

[01:27:46] or you know what are the things that are very New York and then we were like we are going in circles

[01:27:52] to try and cheat a city that's actually an iconic city with its space needle and its own elements

[01:28:01] and why don't we just embrace the Torontoness of it and that was kind of a fun moment of like

[01:28:07] oh yeah like there are no rules or in a city we're in a city and not only it's like it's

[01:28:13] it's you know earth in an alternative future and you know not everything has to be so uh

[01:28:21] Americana centric it's Star Trek we are in Toronto it's easy for production it's kind of fun for

[01:28:28] the story now what is it about this that is going to kind of inform the script now and we just

[01:28:33] leaned into it and it really kind of actually it was that moment of like aha this is going to

[01:28:37] bring certain things to life for that particular and it was refreshing too to see

[01:28:45] not New York being used right I mean it was really nice yeah I was quite ready for us to get

[01:28:51] destroyed at least one alien you know you see that I mean you see that right LA got blown up in

[01:28:59] war of the worlds an independent stay it's time for somebody others let's go wreck another

[01:29:07] I still want the independence day what was happening to Toronto and Toronto uh story but I have

[01:29:13] to say they're like watching that first the the season two trailer and be like oh my gosh is that

[01:29:18] the root store is that a Toronto maple and star Trek I'm like that's incredible yeah I love

[01:29:25] that turquoise not to lunch and he goes gravy on french fries and it's a crazy I know my god

[01:29:33] I should say in condison to the Canadian it's one of them from Toronto would you like to say

[01:29:38] something we should be proud of but absolutely yeah that was a really really nice treat

[01:29:43] oh well thank you what am I when I old boss she originally was from Canada and when she went to

[01:29:49] a restaurant here in LA and they put gravy on french fries she was she almost broke into tears

[01:29:55] she was like oh my god this is just like home you know oh yeah nice before I sign off I just want

[01:30:03] to thank you for having me I love being here and hopefully you'll have me back sometime thank you

[01:30:09] for your time I just say the word just let us know when after season three is been aired we will

[01:30:14] love to have you wanted to chat about that when it's legal I'd love to be back there you have it folks

[01:30:21] a little insight into the working to the writing a writer for strange new worlds we the big sci-fi

[01:30:27] podcast team are so appreciative had on our show someone of the caliber of Davie it allows us to

[01:30:33] get to know how a TV show like strange new worlds is produced as I've stated before without a

[01:30:39] script writers there wouldn't be any characters any story nothing it all begins with the written

[01:30:46] word and we are so happy that the writers and actors strike ended and then we can look forward

[01:30:52] to season three of strange new worlds yes folks when it's legal we'll chat about it then

[01:31:00] if you have any comments on this episode or any other episodes please share them on

[01:31:05] Facebook or Instagram pages or send us an email to the big sci-fi podcast at gmail.com your positive

[01:31:14] comments help to support us and move us up the pecking order of podcasts both nationally and

[01:31:20] internationally I'm talking about you Norway you hear me thanks again to Trek Geeks for supporting

[01:31:27] us and and and we look forward to meeting you at Trek Long Island on May 31 through June 2nd

[01:31:35] get those entry tickets airline tickets room accommodation so we can meet you there as well as the

[01:31:43] folks of as well as other folks and our fellow podcasters from Trek Geeks we plan to have fun and

[01:31:51] games at the event but above all to meet new old friends like I did on September the 8th when I met

[01:31:57] our interviewee David Perez as they sang on the Simpsons a stranger is a friend you haven't met

[01:32:05] and as always let me close by saying keep watching the skies live long and prosper

[01:32:21] you

[01:32:31] cook it up