Author Tom Salinsky

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[00:00:11] Wait a minute receiving a new transmission. What is that? What am I seeing? It's big. It's really big. Oh my god Welcome to season 6 of the big sci-fi podcast the biggest sci-fi podcast in the galaxy

[00:00:25] Join our crew Adina Brian Chris and Steve as we travel the Milky Way looking for the best that science fiction has to offer Make sure you're strapped in tight because we're going to have a lot of fun talking all things sci-fi

[00:00:39] Stay tuned to this channel for the next audio transmission English is a funny language a word written one way can have more than one meaning take the word commitment if you look up the Definition you'll find it as feeling dedication and loyalty to a cause activity or job

[00:01:04] Wholeheartedly dedicated Yes, it can be used that way but it can also used in another sentence such as he was so crazy He had to be committed For today's guest of the big sci-fi podcast. He fits the first hugest of usage of the word committed

[00:01:24] Hello listeners of the big sci-fi podcast. We have a very special guest tonight. His name is Tom Salinsky, is that the correct pronunciation Tom? Thank you. Perfectly correct and he is the author of an upcoming book Star Trek discovering the TV series a subject we seem to like

[00:01:45] For those of you looking to purchase this book. You'll have to wait a little while It will not be available in the USA until June the 13th available from Amazon But place your orders now if you don't mind

[00:01:59] However, if you lived where Tom lives and he is there for this interview. Thank you zoom You can buy this book at by the time this interview is released. So to our UK fans Go get it now

[00:02:14] Like our interview with Jamie Anderson son of Jerry Anderson creator of Thunderbirds we are working in three separate time zones today Pacific where I am Eastern where Adina is and Greenwich mean time in London, which is where Tom is right now. It's after 11 p.m

[00:02:34] Thank you for staying up. We hope you don't mess up your ability to watch whatever favorite late-night show You might want to watch not at all So without further ado Tom, would you please say hello to our listeners? Hello listeners. Yes

[00:02:50] My name is Tom salinski and I spent two years watching an episode of Star Trek every single day and that's where we get into the Conversation of the word commitment. That's a good use of time. That's a good use of time

[00:03:04] Normally we'd have four of the members of the big sci-fi podcast on the show tonight first Adina say hello Hi everybody next would have been Brian, but he had a family event coming up and he's being a good dad because of that

[00:03:20] Chris prior engagement because his engagement is gonna become marriage this by the time this is released and Myself Steve Merkin. I'm here out in California so without any further statements or

[00:03:36] Requirements in the words of the great comedian Jackie Gleason and away we go and let's start off with We'll flip over the cards and let's get to the first question kids. Tell the audience Tom what your book is all about

[00:03:52] So a while ago it occurred to me to wonder how well I knew Star Trek I know a fair bit about a fair few things. I've always been a huge Doctor Who fan And I'd recently completed a podcast project where with two friends

[00:04:07] We had watched every movie that had won best picture at the Academy Awards In an order determined by putting them out of our hat at random just to keep it interesting So you know what your span was that what your for all the years?

[00:04:21] So we did we did that from 93 movies Wow Okay, and in each case we'd we'd research the movie We'd watch the movie and then at the end of each episode we would try and answer the question did the Academy get it

[00:04:33] Right, or was there a movie that had we been asked we would have voted for that was also released that year Interesting what was the answer? I think all three of us only voted with the Academy about a fifth of the time

[00:04:49] But about a third to half the time at least one of us would say the Academy got it, right? Yeah, there's there are some very strong movies in that list there are a few duds

[00:04:58] I'll be very happy if I never have to see around the world at 80 days ever again. That is a that is a disaster of a film it really is But there's some there's some classics. I had no idea even existed like

[00:05:15] A Man for All Seasons, which is just the most incredible film or Well, what's that film from about the oh god, I see you can't remember the name of it now because it's 11 p.m. Here the the serviceman returning home after the war

[00:05:30] Oh best picture in 1946 and then cool years of our lives. Yes, exactly That's an extraordinary film which I'd never seen before and it absolutely broke all of our hearts Yes, yes considering the actual star of the film was a veteran of World War two. That's right

[00:05:45] Yeah, if you want a funny Oscar story Harold Russell had lost both his hands in a Munitions accident and say he wasn't a trained actor, but he was ideal for this part of this movie And lo and behold he was nominated as best supporting actor

[00:06:01] But the Academy realized well, he's not actually going to win and that would kind of you know That would be a bit of a downer So we'll vote him an honorary award and he can have that and that'll be fine So he got his honorary award

[00:06:14] But then when the envelope was open for best supporting actor he had in fact one So he is the only person ever to win two Academy Awards for one performance

[00:06:23] Very interesting. So yes, we completed this project and then I sort of thinking about various things and thinking about Star Trek and My knowledge of Star Trek is kind of scanty and spotty. I watched the movies when they were coming out I

[00:06:40] Went to some lengths to watch the next generation including Going to my local video shop to rent episodes on VHS because that was the only way I could get them And and then about 10 years ago, I did buy the whole series on Blu-ray when it was re-released

[00:06:56] So that was this kind of the the instance of the show I knew the best and I'd watch bits of some of the later shows But it always seemed to be on at strange times or channels. I didn't get After about three or four years of next generation

[00:07:12] Being on BBC two which everyone could get Rupert Murdoch Sky TV bought next generation And that meant you could only watch it if you had a satellite dish, which about 20% of UK homes did

[00:07:23] So it was a marketing ploy as a reason to get a satellite dish, but it meant that I couldn't watch it anymore after that So I thought how long would it take to get caught up and it turns out after a little bit of spreadsheeting

[00:07:35] Yeah, though what I realized was if I started watching the original series on the 1st of January 2022 then I would finish watching Enterprise on Christmas Day 2023 and That just seemed too neat not to do

[00:07:52] so that project became a blog and now the blog has become a book or As originally planned two books and now it looks like almost certainly three books and the first book is covering The original series the animated series and the next generation series

[00:08:10] And is it also including the films of the next generation series as well? No, it includes the original series films. It doesn't include the next generation films for the reason that Including the next generation films would have meant that the book ended on Star Trek nemesis

[00:08:29] You know what I'm there that's why I bring everybody down So instead we get to end on all good things, which is a much a much nicer way to round off the book

[00:08:38] Okay. Well, I'm nemesis is he's gonna be buried somewhere in the middle of book three, I think after mention Yeah We had an episode where we talked about the the 13 Star Trek films and we put them in order and I can't remember

[00:08:53] but I think we had a little fun moving between nemesis and What was the other one Adina that we put it very low? That was the start before that was it?

[00:09:03] Insurrection yeah insurrection. Yes. Yeah, we're I think I said that I don't remember being an inter insurrection in the film But I definitely remember there being a nemesis in nemesis. So yeah Yeah but so

[00:09:18] So you what did you do? Did you purchase the blu-rays or DVDs and and watch it that way? I I like having copies of things I didn't want to be beholden to any particular streaming service and it's whims and vagaries

[00:09:34] And getting all of the box sets meant that I also had access to Commentaries and trivia tracks and behind-the-scenes documentaries and so on all that was very useful for writing extra context So yes, I watched everything on official DVDs and blu-rays

[00:09:48] It's a crying shame that you can't get good HD versions of deep space 9 and Voyager but people didn't buy enough copies of the next generation blu-rays and the work needed to Remaster Voyager and and deep space 9 would have been much more intensive so fans blame yourselves

[00:10:10] Oh, I was gonna say, you know, I just really want to jump in because I'm very So I'm an engineer which means I love data and spreadsheets and playing with numbers

[00:10:19] So one of the things that I noticed that you did, you know, so you gave each episode a rating of 1 to 5 stars and I'm pleased to see that you kind of you you did a reasonable explanation

[00:10:31] You know of what you meant by if you were giving it a 1 versus a 2 3 4 & 5 Which I like cuz that's that's the hardest thing to do right is to figure out your consistent scale and then stick to it But so in my my enjoyment of playing with numbers

[00:10:46] I saw that you most seasons of most of the shows you at the end averaged it yourself like what that seasons like average rating was and Whether it was like up or down like prior to the the next so I looked at all of that

[00:11:00] And I also then wanted to look at well out of a series like out of the original series How many episodes did you give one star rating versus five star rating versus, you know, two three four

[00:11:14] She'd up hang on it. So yeah, it's like you see you've done this I kind of figured you might have done something like this, too I don't think I have I mean I probably could

[00:11:24] Because you're right the average doesn't tell the whole story and it did a series which is Trundling along with with lots of two and a halfs and three and a halfs He's gonna look the same as one with soaring highs and vertiginous lows But I

[00:11:44] Think there's a pretty widespread in all of them. I think on every single season pretty much has got A few a few ones and a few and a few guys Yes. Yes. Well, and it's interesting because there is a clear like, you know bell curve to it. Mm-hmm

[00:12:01] Yeah, it's probably it's probably a normal distribution Yeah, yes where the majority of this is just engineer talk now Steve. I'm not an engineer either, but I do have a master I'm sitting back enjoying the conversation

[00:12:15] But one of the things I noticed is so, you know what I gather from that You know because when we look at numbers and we look at statistics We like to draw conclusions and so my my my conclusions are one. You really didn't like the animated series

[00:12:29] Is that true? Is that is that true? Um, you know, I've seen a couple episodes recently but but that's the other thing is kind of I'm wondering like Do you think? You were not a fan because of the time like you're seeing it now

[00:12:45] Versus had you seen it like in the 70s where the style was a more, you know, like normal for the time You know, I wonder how much of that could be part of it I think it would always always looked a bit cheap

[00:12:57] And I think there is a definite lack of ambition on display in at least half the episodes I think what I can't factor in is the fact that when that series came out There'd be no new Star Trek for like six years

[00:13:12] And so fans would have been just desperate to get their hands on anything at all And that's bound to change the way you experience it. I think

[00:13:20] But I can't quite think myself back into that that situation. I just have to to play play the ball as it lies No, that's fair. That's fair. Oh, go ahead. I was gonna say as a person who was there when it happened

[00:13:34] Because I've watched Star Trek as I've said to me times from September the 8th 1966 and onward When Star Trek was cancelled, I was you know hurt because I loved it You know, I was this was this was I mean

[00:13:47] I love science fiction as a kid growing up in the 60s and all of a sudden there was really great science fiction It just wasn't the Robinson family trundling through split through space not knowing where they're going or

[00:14:00] You know Admiral Nelson turning into a werewolf on voyage to the bottom of the sea we had really Important stories. So when it was gone, it was terrible And then when they announced that they were having an handmade series I went

[00:14:13] Oh, this is great Saturday morning cartoons gonna be so wonderful to watch and like it was the same thing I felt like this isn't the Star Trek that I watched it was cheap animation or quickie work animation and

[00:14:29] Rehashing some old stories and some of you know, some characters weren't brought over and some were brand new and it it wasn't I I never really was fond of it Watching it when it was originated so I can story about the the cast. Don't you?

[00:14:46] Please share us go ahead The voice and neem. Yeah, so yeah, so they they signed up William Shatner de Forest Kelly, Leonard Nimoy And then they signed up Majel Barrett and James Dewan and they sort of assumed that

[00:15:01] Major Barrett and James Dewan could then do all the other voices being quite versatile and it was Leonard Nimoy He pointed out that what they had essentially done was hired all the white actors

[00:15:11] And he said he wasn't gonna do it at all unless they also hired George Takei and Nichelle Nichols So that left out poor old Walter Koenig last in first out once they did he did manage to get Michelle and George on as as rightly they should have been

[00:15:28] And what I'm also going to write a half decent episode For the show called the infinite Vulcan, which is one of the one of the better ones it's one of the sillier ones, but it's one of the ones that tells a proper adventure story and

[00:15:41] Makes use of the animated medium. You couldn't have done that story on the 1960s shows budget But you can do it in animation almost as as cheaply as you could do a show

[00:15:52] And there is such a show where the crew just sit around playing practical jokes of each other for 20 minutes Which is not one of the franchise's high water marks No, no Need to go back and rewatch the animated it's been a while. It's it's not essential

[00:16:15] Yeah, go ahead I did of course look at you know, which one you know from the the next generation and from the original series You know which ones you did rate a one star versus a five star and I have to say I think I generally

[00:16:27] agree with your ratings I think most people especially the five stars I feel like those are the lists of the you know, those are the episodes that do You know come to the top of people's lists and so that was kind of that was nice to see

[00:16:39] You know that we there is some commonality in thinking between us fans Yeah, I tried to be aware at least after the fact

[00:16:48] I tried not to read too much before I watched a new episode, but I tried to be aware at least after the fact if I was Saying something wildly captive consensus A lot of people are buried down on turnabout intruder for example, which I thought was fine

[00:17:04] It's silly, but it's no silly than quite a lot of other Star Trek episodes and the the business about What was her name Janice? I think saying this world of Starship Captains There's no place for women has been interpreted as meaning

[00:17:19] Starfleet doesn't have any women captains when it's true. You don't see any in the original series but I think you can also interpret it as You are in love with your job And also part of the else she is the bad guy

[00:17:32] So I don't think we're necessarily supposed to take what she says as life lessons that we should all live by So I thought turnabout intruder was fine. It's not a finale in any sense of the word, but it's fine But there are people who hate that episode

[00:17:47] Yeah, I don't think I hate I don't think there's anything in the original series that I passionately hate Spock's brain even I don't There are people who think of Spock's brain is this sort of camp classic masterpiece

[00:18:08] Which I think is being incredibly generous because I really don't think that's what they were going for Yeah, so I don't passionately hate it. It's not my favorite episode It's not one that like, you know, I seek out to rewatch

[00:18:22] But I also don't hate it and when I was on the Star Trek cruise recently The the folks the celebrities who were there on the boat one evening. They did a recreation of Scott of Spock's brain which was Fantastically hilarious. Yeah, it was and if that episode

[00:18:42] Existed only to a million years in the future have this like basically comedy version of it Then it was well worth it Also, there's a show in the original series. Let that be your last battlefield which some people think is marvelous

[00:18:59] It's the one with the with the with Frank Gorshin and the black and white people right and there are some people Oh, it's a parable about racism. It's so incredible But everything that isn't a parable about racism in that episode is very very stupid

[00:19:12] And the stuff that is a parallel parable about racism is sending the message that black and white people were equally to blame for slavery And I'm not sure that's a message I can a hundred percent get behind. I

[00:19:24] Don't know if that's the message that I picked up where is generally picked out now let's see now I want to go watch rewatch that and go back and watch it it's since because the The two races are indistinguishable Because you can't remember who's supposed to have

[00:19:38] Black on which side It's very like no, it's it's the hate that's the problem and they destroyed each other when they go back to the planet There's nobody left because they destroyed each other but that's not right system is racism is a dominant force in society subjugating a

[00:19:54] Another group of people for their own ends. Well, then maybe that's it Maybe the episode really was never about racism but about just hate Which is very enough, but it's all in trains of art that I said everything else on the episode is incredibly dumb

[00:20:08] Well, I think I think that anything about that aspect overshadows anything else in the episode So yeah, I see now I'm gonna go rewatch that You might come to a completely different conclusion and that's all part of the fun Yeah, I did not write this book with the

[00:20:23] Idea that this would be some some final definitive statement about the the merit of these episodes It's things I thought as I was watching them And that's why there are also a few essays from other people in there

[00:20:34] Sometimes backing up what I've said and sometimes contradicting me because you know We're we're all free to enjoy the show in our own way That is correct. And that's that's a beauty of it is we all we all enjoyed in our own specific way

[00:20:46] And some people may look at the original series as being as you said campy Silly, you know cardboard sets with Gumball lights and things like that, but it still was for 1966 67 to 68 It was it was groundbreaking television and you should see what 1968 Doctor Who looks like by comparison

[00:21:08] Where they sometimes spend upwards of three thousand pounds on an episode? Yeah, I guess I don't have a feel for that like what was three thousand pounds Well, I think an episode of Star Trek cost about I think about a hundred thousand dollars in

[00:21:25] Two hundred thousand dollar range, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so you figure three thousand pounds It's yes about about forty five hundred dollars US maybe or so. Yeah, and that would have been an expensive episode

[00:21:38] Well, and that gets that comes maybe to some of the questions which is what was the first science fiction that got you Interested what was the first that you watch it was the Doctor Who on television? Was it the movies was what was it?

[00:21:51] Or was it anything else besides that I Started getting science fiction by reading books. I was reading Robert Heinlein and Isaac Asimov and Nicholas Fisk is rather a forgotten British children science fiction author who wrote some incredible stories

[00:22:09] And and that led me to Doctor Who and the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy And and that led me to kind of everything else and I I think I saw The motion picture at the cinema when it first came out and then my memories of

[00:22:24] Roth of Khan and search for Spock are again. It's the novelizations more than anything else I'm sure I did see them at the cinema around the time when they first came out or when they were first on on TV

[00:22:35] A year or two later, but I read and reread those novelizations And then I think Star Trek 5 is the first one where I was old enough to like take myself to go and see it at the cinema and that was Somewhat of a disappointment

[00:22:50] Don't ask don't don't if you ask William Shatner, what's the best Star Trek movie of all time? It's Star Trek 5 because he directed it. So yes Yeah, it's all a matter

[00:22:59] but it's interesting because a number of the people who we've interviewed who have you know were involved in Star Trek one of The other a lot of them the very first move they ever saw was wrath of Khan and they even saw that before

[00:23:11] They ever saw the original space seed episode So that was their introduction to Star Trek is that particular film? Yeah, I've never seen space seed when I saw Roth of Khan for the first time. Yeah, so it's like you're picking up the story

[00:23:24] after it's already happened in but it's it's done so well that you can actually watch it and Get the whole jester what's going on because it is Explained through the dialogue and the action what you know what preceded it then you can you can understand that

[00:23:39] But yeah for me like for dr Who is you you mentioned that to me the first time I saw a dr Who was Peter Cushing in 1960s and I saw that on television, you know invasion Earth 2050 or something like that

[00:23:54] Who in the Daleks and to me that's dr Who so when you know watching all the newer series it's like no, that's not dr Who it's Peter Cushing's that's a dr Who is you know, so it's all a matter of perception as to what you know

[00:24:07] Your first introduction is to something unique and I think we now have a new Disney Plus Doctor who that's on now. Yes, right? Yes. Well, it's the same old doctor who but Disney Plus is putting some money in

[00:24:19] And in exchange they get worldwide distribution more than 3,000 pounds per episode. Yes But in any any question half for Tom well, so what's interesting is because again, it's it's one of those things like I want to

[00:24:35] And not pick on but like, you know there again in the whole There are some shows you're really like a four that I'm like that for me is an absolute five and some that you have Like a five like maybe I don't know, you know, and it's hard

[00:24:49] To miss to misquote Tom Lehrer. These are my opinions that if you don't like them, I have others Did you say Tom Lehrer the comedian yes, yeah Good huge fan of Tom Lehrer amazing amazing man. I love it

[00:25:05] And the Protestants hate the Catholics and the Catholics hate Protestants and Hindus hate that everyone hates the Jews Tom Lear political science. Oh my gosh, I'm sorry

[00:25:16] But I think like if I had if I rank these and I kind of now wish I had done that and prep for it You know prep for this and compared my percentages to yours

[00:25:24] I think I my bell curve would have skewed more to like over a four in general then over You know, you're you're clearly over three. I would have done more before because yeah I mean there are a few episodes and I'm like, wow is

[00:25:37] Why didn't he give this a five? I guess I was watching I sort of I imagine every episode starts at a three Then like for every good thing it does it creeps up and for every brand thing

[00:25:48] It does it creeps down and I kind of end up trying to figure out where to place it Sometimes something will happen right at the very end of an episode I wasn't really feeling and then something will happen at the end. We all that's worth an extra star

[00:25:58] That's worth an extra half a star. Sure. Sure. I guess I look at it, especially for an episode. That's a five The way the way I describe it which is also not necessarily a good description or it's a very subjective thing is like

[00:26:11] How much do I want to rewatch the episode and how much can I tolerate? We're watching the episode or want our crave we're watching it And so there are a couple ones like the defector

[00:26:21] First-contact lower decks I can I can watch those over and over and over and over and over again And again, and it's just kind of funny because I think one of the things that you're gonna

[00:26:32] You know, i'm curious like like we have to talk another, you know a year from now Because i'm curious to know once this book is out there and you're talking to people about it The experiences that you're going to get with talking back and forth on you know

[00:26:46] People are going to be like you gave that one of four It should have been a five and you know and all that and did did you experience that because you were

[00:26:54] Blogging and tweeting some of this as you were watching it. Yeah, did you experience any of that along the way? Not a huge amount. Uh, there's a couple of people Pulled me up on uh yesteryear

[00:27:06] Uh most people's favorite episode of the animated series and i was quite lucky that I do have I think it's eno mccormack Sticking up for yesteryear because I didn't quite get it

[00:27:15] And uh, i've been hoping for more of that incredible kirk spock mccoy chemistry in the animated series and I was frustrated in the second episodes It's all focused on spock and kirk's not there once he goes back in time And yes, I did appreciate

[00:27:31] Uh the uh, the bittersweet ending Uh, but I was kind of distracted by not having that that chemistry there and I think I maybe didn't give that episode It's due. Uh, but no, it's it's not been too bad. Like I said, I think

[00:27:44] Uh, i've given myself a little bit of a shield by having these other reviews sprinkled through Um dan starkey, uh who your listeners may know as the son taran strax from the more recent iteration of doctor who

[00:27:57] Uh is a good friend and he stuck up for of all stories catspaw Uh, which as far as I could tell was just total nonsense But he remembered watching it when he was 10 years old. I think he was the most fun he'd ever had in his life

[00:28:08] uh, so uh Like I say These are my thoughts and that's all they are and I make no, uh claim that i've done anything other than try To help you understand how I got there even if you wouldn't have got there or you think i'm

[00:28:25] Uh deranged for having got there. You can at least like see what my thought process was Yeah, and I think that's fair. That's good So did you spend did you allocate a specific time during the day to watch?

[00:28:38] The episode you're good. You chose to watch that particular day No, it was it was wherever I could fit it in and uh, I was watching them in strict release order Uh, so there was no there was no choose it was whatever episode came up

[00:28:50] I would meant by the way that um once deep space nine started I was Roughly alternating deep space nine and next generation and then alternating deep space nine voyager Uh towards so because you were leaving you were okay, so you were doing even though they were

[00:29:07] Released at the same time or Inter-intertwined. Yeah, you were watching that watching episodes in strict release order exactly as as you would have seen them Steve when uh when you were watching in the 90s

[00:29:19] Uh, so uh, no I watched whenever I had time. Uh, I first thing in the morning last thing at night over lunch And then sometimes I would Realize I I had a busy week or I was traveling and I'd bank episodes

[00:29:30] I'd watch two or three early or sometimes I'd get behind that i'd have to to catch up uh, so uh, I uh, I set aside a weekend to watch

[00:29:39] The I timed it so I had a weekend to watch the the the four movies because they became one after the other Right, so I was able to watch those over a weekend that kind of thing

[00:29:48] So there's a little bit of a play a little bit of give Uh, but the the upshot was on average watching one episode a day And again the episode is you know 50 and five fifty plus minutes in the 1960s 40 plus minutes as the years go by

[00:30:05] Um, but did you as you're watching you say okay pause it you make some notes Started again pause it make some notes. Did did you do that? Or did you just wait after I was I was making notes

[00:30:17] But I rarely paused it unless i'd like miss something or misunderstood something Uh, so it is possible. I just got something dead wrong because I was writing a note while some important line of dialogue was being said I hope that's not happened. I don't think it has

[00:30:29] Uh, but uh, no, I just tried to scribble things down as I was watching and then uh, then type them up uh, I so I put up blog posts about every five or six days

[00:30:41] And that was an opportunity just to kind of get the things in order and then everything's been for the book everything's been gone over and Re-written and condensed or expanded or streamlined

[00:30:50] uh, there's a difference between what i'm willing to check up on a blog for free and what i'm asking people to Part with hard end cash for well, I mean as far as hard end cash I mean it is you know a definitive thing that you've done

[00:31:04] So really, you know, you could watch you can go to the blog but here you can actually have this hard covered Record of what one person did which is rather interesting there

[00:31:15] There was a movie that came out a few years ago, uh based on a story of a woman who cooked every day For 365 days something that julia charles

[00:31:27] Had done and it was a wonderful movie as I remember seeing but there was someone again who did the same thing Who's decided i'm going to do this every day Cook one dish that she did And it was it was uniquely amazing

[00:31:43] You didn't have to cook but you still had to Commit to almost full two years to doing this project Did anyone ever say? tom Knock it off. Yeah, my wife wasn't keen she Uh didn't really uh get behind the whole project

[00:32:01] Uh, but I think she was quite she was a bit bit more excited when the book deal came along And that seemed to sort of legitimize it a bit That's that's really nice. That's good One of the things is really interesting to me. So since you didn't watch

[00:32:13] Especially next generation in its original run. So i'm of the age when next generation came out I was a teenager and I watched that as it as it aired And as i've gotten older and rewatched it's it's interesting because watching certain episodes now

[00:32:29] It's a different experience and I think i've talked about this a little bit on the podcast in the past especially with The crushers because when I was watching its original run I identified closer to westley because I was closer to his age where now

[00:32:45] I'm a mom and older i'm older than dr Crusher was at that time so I I look at that a little bit differently So and that's what you know, one of the things that's interesting to me since you're watching this recently

[00:32:57] I wonder if you would have ever had and there's no way to know we can't go back But i'm wondering just like would you have had the same impression if you had seen some of these episodes?

[00:33:06] You know at the time and and one that was struck struck me Is your rating and review of the outcast? Oh, yeah Which was an episode that I loved and one of the reasons why I loved it when it came out at the time

[00:33:23] Was because that was when I was I think a senior in high school. I think I was a senior and I was reading a lot of ursa leguin Who she wrote a lot about um different, you know cultures androgynous cultures and stuff like that

[00:33:39] And so to be kind of going through that experience and then like oh my god here. That's what they're You know showing on the screen. I was just so like excited that they were doing that and your review is interesting because it kind of pokes on how

[00:33:53] really throughout next generation they did not do a good job of Of Showing better gender things which is really a you know Kind of a more of a take on the culture of the 90s here in america than I think on anything else

[00:34:06] but it's just yeah interesting because i'm wondering if you had watched that at the time if that you would have had a similar reaction to Looking at it through the lens of you know, what season is the outcast? It was season five

[00:34:18] Oh, yes, I've always said he didn't watch it at the time. I watched the first three seasons Uh because bbc2 well, there's a funny story about that I'll just tell you this very briefly as a cover of this is in the book or not, but uh

[00:34:28] The bbc bought the first three seasons of next generation and started showing them weekly Uh, and if you just pause for a second and think about season three of next generation Might dawn on you that there's a significant problem with this purchase given that at that point

[00:34:42] There was no plan to buy season four or anything after Which is that season three ends? With the best of both worlds. Oh, yes All right, i'll leave you with a cliffhanger. Yeah Patrick stewart tells a story of uh during the the the break between seasons uh

[00:35:00] Driving through la and stopping his car in traffic and having the family in the next car over wind down the window and yell at him You have ruined our summer Because everyone's going crazy not knowing what would happen over the rumors were flying maybe

[00:35:13] Started by paramount who knows that patrick stewart was going back to the stage and wouldn't be doing any more star trek So there was people thought they might be writing him out for good

[00:35:22] Uh, so uh at somebody somewhere at paramount or somewhere else just said to the bbc Why don't you take the first episode of season four as well? uh, so uh We only had to wait a week between best of both worlds and best of both worlds part two

[00:35:38] Uh, but uh, it was then it was a while before we saw family uh, so Uh, so we always watch some of those episodes as they came out, but I was really struck by there's a story that um at a convention early in

[00:35:54] Next year when it had just started or just before it started A fan asked jean roddenberry about putting gay characters on the enterprise and he said somebody defective. Yes, the time has come

[00:36:05] We absolutely should be doing that what happens next is uh, he becomes too sick to take a regular Uh art in actually producing the show power eventually, uh goes to rick burman And he is very risk-averse

[00:36:22] Putting gay characters on an american show in first run syndication is too big a risk and he isn't prepared to do it uh, so uh There are kind of little half-hearted nods in the direction of gay representation Until you get to deep space nine

[00:36:40] And the character of garak And andrew robinson, uh said said very clearly when he got the script I think it's the second it's second or third episode of deep space nine and he looked at the interactions that garak has with Dr. Bashir. He said well, I know exactly

[00:36:57] Uh what garak wants from dr. Bashir and it's carmel And so that's what he played and uh alexander siddiq got the idea and and he played it back and For for about three years both of them played all their scenes together as if they were flirting

[00:37:12] And the writers began to pick up with the subtext and they began writing that too and then rick burman noticed And lo and behold suddenly garak has a girlfriend Like a a good red-blooded heterosexual kardasian

[00:37:26] Uh, and and all that went away, but there's a delightful during like this was during lockdown uh a uh a bit of fan fiction which was performed at an online convention by alexander siddiq and uh,

[00:37:38] And uh, andrew robinson, uh, which ends with andrew robinson saying um as garak Um, I have to go now my husband's calling me And the husband is dr. Bashir and that's that's just lovely but uh, they they could have should have been gay characters on star trek before

[00:37:57] Uh discovery and it's kind of it kind of pisses me off that there weren't Uh, so that may be why I gave that episode a hard time

[00:38:05] I think I say I can't remember if it's that episode. It's somewhere in the book. I say some of the effect of Uh, i'm happy for star trek episodes to be space adventure if that's all they're trying to do and if they know that really well

[00:38:16] That'll get five stars from me. That's that's no problem but if you're going to Tell a story with some kind of social message then I think I get to judge the social message

[00:38:26] uh, and uh same with uh, let that be your last battlefield, I think they they uh, I can't endorse what they're trying to say and if you're trying to Deliver a message with your art

[00:38:41] Then that becomes part of the thing that i'm going to assess and come to have opinions about Yeah, no, and I and I agree but I think you know, we have to appreciate the fact that there are the people who are trying

[00:38:53] To tell a message with the art and then there's the machine of The business that is they're they're butting heads So the fact that they got any of that through I think is a testament to how much they wanted to and how much they tried

[00:39:08] And I guess that's you know what i'm, you know I guess to some degree appreciative of I want to go back though and and mention the When you were talking about the gap between the seasons, you know, you have the summer and again

[00:39:20] I remember you remember that's the way tv used to be that was you know It was summer was the worst for tv because you were always waiting for the next thing But I can tell you like right now

[00:39:29] I would give anything to go back and have only a single summer Between tv show seasons. I mean, i'm not just talking about star street I'm talking about anything the fact that like it's a year or two years between seasons of shows is just like

[00:39:45] And then you get eight episodes and it's gone again. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah Yeah, we we uh, we interviewed uh one of the writers from uh Strange new worlds davy perez and the whole point is that

[00:40:02] From the end of the episode the last episode of strange new worlds. We have to wait till 2025 Before it and and he's already written they've already written all the scripts. They've gone through production

[00:40:14] You think well, just get it done, you know get it out there. But no it won't be until Maybe you know We have to wait another six to eight eight to ten months before we get to see the next one anything to just have Just a summer

[00:40:30] And then we as you said, we only get eight or ten episodes where you know Enterprise still gave you 26, you know when when it was in its last run So you had I mean you you you got a lot of episodes

[00:40:46] And they weren't that long before the next season so if you had a cliffhanger you didn't have to wait that long to get the The you know the payoff from it or something like that, but now it's yeah, it's it's amazing

[00:41:00] It's bad for writers too. You know used to be if you if you were staffed on a show like star trek Uh, you'd spend like uh, you know It would take you 40 42 weeks to knock out those 20 to 25 episodes

[00:41:12] and then you have a few months off then you'd be right back there, but uh Someone like your guest is then going to be in work for three months working on a season of star trek and you've got to find

[00:41:22] Another gig. Yeah, it makes it hard to recruit talent that it makes it hard to make a living as a writer Yeah, exactly exactly and keep consistency because if those writers go do something else There's no guarantee they're coming back to that. You know, because yes. Yeah, it's

[00:41:37] Yeah, there's a lot of things that feel very broken I know and that's that's that's the problem of you know modern television is that we don't have I mean the network still are giving you you know 15 to 20 episodes

[00:41:52] Of a series and you don't you only have to wait till next You know till next summer to watch it But even that has been extended out then sometimes the next year starts a shortage of young sheldon or ncis Yes

[00:42:07] Yes, yeah, don't don't mention my my wife lives ncis hawaii and they just they just cancelled it And they had a cliffhanger at the end of the episode. She's like

[00:42:17] No, why no, that's one of my favorite shows, but you know, you're left with like an episode of nci Oh Okay I've watched where it's a show that exists. Yeah. Yeah But anyway, um So okay. Okay. Here's a simple question. Here's a simple question

[00:42:36] Of watching all the series and so on is there one character that you? Like the best I mean in all of this and there are so many characters and so many You know main characters supporting characters

[00:42:50] Occasional characters is there one that you like? Yeah, that's the one I enjoy watching the most I think i'm going to say seven of nine because uh because Uh, there are two versions of star trek voyager

[00:43:04] One that's pretty bad one. That's pretty good and the difference is jerry ryan is seven of nine She just likes that show up when she turns up and I can't think of any other character Possibly with the exception of spock in the original series

[00:43:16] but you haven't got a spotless version of the show to compare it to but I can't think of any other character who just uh Turns a show around the way that she does Uh, there's this there's decent stuff in earlier episodes of voyager

[00:43:27] Uh, but it's it's a it's a blog all the way until jerry ryan shows up and then she is just phenomenal Uh what she does with that part is extraordinary

[00:43:36] I was gonna say so does that you know, so the love for seven of nine does that include into card Oh, yeah, I was delighted to see her back again. In fact, it was funny because watching the early seasons of

[00:43:48] Uh picard before i'd done this I only had kind of vague recollections of who she was and I can you know Roughly remember her backstory uh, but then by the time season three of picard came around i'd finished watching voyager

[00:44:00] And uh, so then my my appreciation for her grew even more Yeah, yeah, that's uh, that's an extraordinary bit of uh of casting Uh when there's there's one scene in one episode of the second season of picard Where she uh appears in a park?

[00:44:17] She appears and little girl looks up and says are you a superhero in seven? I just goes Like he makes a little and then walks away and felt like What a way beautiful scene, you know, what a beautiful scene

[00:44:29] And then of course we're all like going yes, would you please give us a series with Seven of nine Rafi, you know and and i'd watch it legacy. Yep legacy

[00:44:42] Would you give us something like that because it would be such a great show because like you said episodes Yes, please Well, they would but it would be over two seasons and over four years That would be the wrong problem

[00:44:54] But yeah, but still there's an example of where yeah her character has just evolved and you know from where she was in voyager to where she was in per card and Super well done all the way around. Yeah, you're right. We we had uh on our show

[00:45:12] We had philist strong who was a script writer for For okay, so, you know who she is and we talked about the one episode that she did where She switched bodies with The doctor that's delightful. It's absolutely and she had she had so much fun jerry ryan playing

[00:45:32] Robert picardo And it was just that shows her depth of quality as an actress where she just you know Yeah, she you know for for a lot of boys is like Wow, I could watch that all day long

[00:45:48] You know there are a lot of girls who think the same thing too Yeah, yeah There's no shortage of of uh of babes in skin tight spandex on star trek but there's something a bit special about jerry ryan and it's the

[00:46:00] It's there's this kind of arc of uh star trek baddies, uh, and done well It can be great, but it can get a little bit tropey if you're not careful But the the the pattern goes something like this, uh generic und indistinguishable bad guys

[00:46:15] Uh one who stands out from the crowd Uh one who stands out from the crowd and is our ally, uh, oh they're all different So you can see that happening with clingons

[00:46:25] You can see it happen with forengi and and who'd have thought you would see it happening with borg But of course as far back as I as I borg in next generation You can see it starting and then so to have a a borg crew member

[00:46:36] Is amazing and that is a well that they mine so extensively and maybe by the seventh season have started over mining Um, but it's incredibly it's an incredibly rich scene um Well, the problem with voyager is that it's the the um, the human characters are also dull

[00:46:52] And so they keep falling back on uh, the doctor and uh, and seven of nine And I have a brilliant performer in rock sand dorsum. They almost never give her anything to do. It's so frustrating

[00:47:04] It's very interesting and and you're right you're right about that and and again The show had some really great had to have villains all the way through You know and uh again to me um Haptan what's your name? Uh verac from the third season of picard um

[00:47:24] Amanda who Amanda plumber. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, and truly the greatest going away Line of all time if she's ejected out of it We won't use those words But we all know what she said and it was a great line

[00:47:39] And again, that's where you you have these villains that are interesting and you like them or you know as we did the where we discussed about um, uh david warner playing the baddie against Picard and the whole thing about the three or four or five lights

[00:48:00] You you sit there and you go steal from george orwell, but but uh, it's a it's a brilliant use of it Yes, exactly But again, you just you you watch this he's a bad guy, but you're

[00:48:11] You admire him or you like him or even you know going back to space seed and you watch con you're going This guy's interesting. There's something about him. We wanted we we we like him even though he's the bad guy

[00:48:24] You know, and that's what's know the story about david warner and um chain of command No, please please share it. He was a last-minute replacement for another actor No, I did really which meant he didn't have time to learn any of the dialogue He's giving that performance

[00:48:41] Reading virtually every single line of cue cards like he's on an episode of saturday night live Now you have to be a really good actor to come in and give that level of performance opposite patrick steward

[00:48:52] But you are approaching genius level to come in and give that performance with essentially zero preparation Wow I gotta go back and watch that with that piece of knowledge. It's amazing He's such he was such a good actor. He's such a loss

[00:49:06] Oh absolutely in everything that he did in all the episodes from from being, you know, bob cratchit in in christmas carol To playing uh jack the ripper in time after time and the man had tremendous

[00:49:21] Scale of his acting ability and that's the same as the embodiment of evil in time bandits Uh, oh my gosh so funny in that film That is a you've seen that one of dina, you know that really well

[00:49:34] It's been a it's been a while that might be a good rewatch at some point the the near future We have to do an episode of time bandits. It's it's sheer genius uh, yes where um

[00:49:45] God is who who is he who was the british actor son as god? Yes Yes, sort of a slightly dandruffy headmaster Uh, exactly exactly. Um, we're going off on tangents. We love it on this show That's what we always do

[00:50:01] Always do we get going on talking about one thing and we lead to another and so on and so forth. Um Yeah, there's this optimism and this this open-heartedness about star trek that really marks it out

[00:50:12] And it goes all the way back at least as far as devil in the dark Which is one of my absolute favorite episodes of the original series Uh, and it's brilliant in a number of ways. I think it's sort of some wonderful kirk and spock material in that

[00:50:24] uh, but uh I have a little plush plush Uh, yeah, it's a little harder a little harder the idea that the the savage monster that's disintegrating all these innocent miners Is the uh aggrieved party that needs to be protected is phenomenal

[00:50:42] For american network television in 1966. Come on people. This is fantastic And yeah, and then you know with mccoy going I think I can heal the dead, you know He's got the silicon. He's putting in there patching the wound in there doctor not a brick layer, right? Thank you

[00:51:01] And then of course it turns out oh the miners realize we're the we're the bad guys Yeah, we're the we're the and and then they they it's it's stunning stuff join forces together That that's the beauty of the show is that you know, they they

[00:51:15] Yeah, sometimes yes in star trek it would be in the last 10 minutes They would solve all the problems pretty quick through something simple or something Unbelievable, but that was the trademark of the show and there's an example of that one as well But yeah, you're right

[00:51:32] There was and it's I think that's what it was because you know again growing up the 60s Late 60s what was going on in the united states between martin luther king bobby kennedy being killed the vietnam war all these things going on

[00:51:48] you had political strife you had the Rides of the democratic convention 1968, but then you had star trek and it was like this voice of optimism where It wasn't about financial gain It wasn't about political gain it was about

[00:52:08] Seeking out new life and new civilization and my goodness, you know that was really optimism That was missing from television at that time Yeah, you're right Any other questions adina I don't think so. Um, but this is you know an interesting book to have like at your side

[00:52:29] While you're watching the show You know watch an episode and then go and see what tom, you know rated and said and then uh If you agree with me disagree with me. It's it's all it's all fine But yeah, like I said, I I hope

[00:52:43] My little reviews are entertaining to read I hope i've been clear about how I reach my conclusions and i'm very happy for you to read the book going Well, this is exactly what I think and the man is clearly a genius

[00:52:55] Uh, or I couldn't disagree more but i'm i'm happy to have the debate in my mind Both of those are absolutely fine by me And what's really cute is because you are british you use terms and words that are not common or not

[00:53:10] Not american phrases, which I I love I jumped out at you Uh mop it You refer to little kids in children mop its yes. Yes, that is I you know, I slightly allergic to mopeds

[00:53:23] Yep, I feel like i've heard that term maybe in like a monday python episode or something like that But it is not a common term for little kids like we might call them like munchkins or something We're you know, or you say kiddo, you know little kiddos

[00:53:37] kiddos munchkins younglings There's all kinds of we have our cute ways of doing it. Mop it is not one So I think it's super cute that you do things like so that one especially because I have two mopeds of my own

[00:53:49] You know it it stuck that one stuck out at me And I think my last question I wrote down here is What's your favorite beer? Having nothing to do with the fast and the furious I uh do frequently order a corona Just because it's a kind of like

[00:54:12] Crispy beer that it goes down easily. It's refreshing. Yeah, exactly I will say I went to england for the first time in 2019 went to a british pub Ordered a guinness and realized just how much better it is there

[00:54:26] Than it is here. Maybe it was because I was in a pub in england enjoying a cold british guinness but Yeah, that was special irish people will tell you it's even better in ireland than it is in england

[00:54:39] Yeah as a point of note, I learned when I was in germany a bunch of years ago The beer that they export is not the same beer that they sell locally. It really is not so we were near We were at beck's Where they make becks and

[00:54:54] It was so delicious. I it's not something I drink here But there it was just so delicious and that's where I learned what they sell locally It's not the same as what they export here

[00:55:03] So I believe that your your guinness experience is probably something similar like you had a different guinness than you would get here That's that's what i've been. Yeah, that's been told that you know what we get here in the states is the leftovers

[00:55:17] But that's okay, I still like it here as a leftover as well. So there you go um Well with that in mind then I guess I can close by saying there you have it folks. Tom has shared with us his insights into the amazing endeavor of his

[00:55:32] He is not crazy nor do you suffer from ocd? He just did what we all love to do he watched star trek and he enjoyed it If this has piqued your interest, please go and buy his book

[00:55:47] Tom was gracious enough to share a copy a digital copy with us so we could prepare for this And I know i'm gonna buy a copy of his book from my collection. So

[00:55:57] And as always we are so grateful to be part of the trek geeks network of podcasts If you have enjoyed this episode, please go to our facebook our instagram pages or whatever platform You are using to listen to these recordings and share your ratings five stars

[00:56:15] Please like tom assigned to all good things and not what he gave to spock's brain You can even send us an email at the big sci-fi podcast at gmail.com If that is best for you And as always I leave you with these parting words

[00:56:32] Look to the skies live long and prosper Thank you so much guys Books make great presents. They do