001 - Social Progress

[00:00:00] Coconut! Welcome aboard Science Station 2, where the corridors are filled with blue shirts

[00:00:19] and discussions of the heart and soft sciences can be heard from every corner.

[00:00:30] Welcome listeners to the first episode of Science Station 2. I am your host, Haley Stoddert.

[00:00:40] And today with me, I am very excited to have a special guest to discuss the topic.

[00:00:46] It is Dr. Ethan Siegel. Welcome aboard Science Station 2.

[00:00:51] Oh well it's my pleasure you know. I wasn't ready to take the teleporter but I took the shuttlecraft over

[00:00:57] and it's great to be here. So thanks for having me and I'm looking forward to a fabulous discussion.

[00:01:03] I am so excited to have you on. We have talked before and you are a scientist, so I'm really

[00:01:12] excited because you have this topic that we're going to discuss and we can throw in some

[00:01:17] science into this discussion about where we're going, how we're going to get there, and we're going

[00:01:22] to kind of discuss this, how do we get to Star Trek? How do we get there and what is it going to take

[00:01:29] for us not only scientifically, technologically, socially and philosophically. And so I'm really

[00:01:36] excited about this. You know, I am too and I think you bring up just an excellent point.

[00:01:41] Just write off the bad is that when you think about Star Trek and where they are you know,

[00:01:46] 200, 300, 400 years in the future. Yeah they have technology that is so advanced that it does

[00:01:54] literally seem indistinguishable from magic to us that you have them, you know just materialize

[00:02:01] whole objects out of what appears to be nothingness and then you have a permanent object that you can

[00:02:08] eat or you could play as a musical instrument or you could use as a tool like way beyond what any 3D

[00:02:15] printer can do. You can travel faster than the speed of light, you can communicate faster than

[00:02:21] the speed of light. Star Trek has all of these things but what they also have is a lack of some

[00:02:30] of the major sources of conflict on Earth today that they don't have poverty, they don't have starvation,

[00:02:40] they don't have malnutrition, they don't have a world ravaged by diseases. And so when you look

[00:02:47] at both how science has advanced and you look at like oh like look at how everyone's life is better

[00:02:54] but that second part of it is huge because it's everyone's life is better, they don't have a

[00:03:01] homelessness population, they don't have an inequality problem although in some incarnations

[00:03:08] of Star Trek they get into that and you do, it's not like the original series or next generation where

[00:03:14] oh here we are on the flagship and everything is no like we're over here in the outskirts of the

[00:03:19] galaxy and we're cleaning up the mess of a civil war or you know we're in the middle of another war

[00:03:25] with the Klingons because you know you fight, fight, fight. So there are these interesting things and

[00:03:33] I think it's really worth looking at from a scientific perspective when it comes to hard physical

[00:03:40] sciences but also from that sociological perspective, from that philosophical like how do we need

[00:03:47] to evolve as individuals and as a society in order so that this dream, this vision of what the

[00:03:57] future can be, can actually come to fruition. Yeah and it's really interesting that we get a lot

[00:04:04] of episodes in Star Trek where they're looking at encountering another planet and that planet is

[00:04:11] going through things that maybe today on Earth we would be going through and so it's a nice

[00:04:16] reflection of like how far Starfleet and the Federation have come from those things and how far

[00:04:24] Earth has gone from those things to contrast it to a planet that they encounter that's got a

[00:04:30] civil war. We see that in deep space 9 and so there's a lot of conflict but it doesn't necessarily

[00:04:35] happen within Starfleet itself, you know the crew doesn't necessarily have conflicts which I don't

[00:04:41] think happens. I mean it's still people and people have problems, there's unresolved conflict

[00:04:47] and issues within their own person that's going to affect their relationships with other crew members

[00:04:53] so we don't see a lot of that happen but it's still going to be there and so I,

[00:04:58] it's fascinating to take this look of like okay we can see some of these technological advances

[00:05:04] that have happened you know we have cell phones we have laptops we have computers we have tablets

[00:05:10] but we're so far lacking in the social aspects and the soft sciences of advancing towards this

[00:05:19] future and what we need to do to get there. And so that's where we're kind of I think lacking the

[00:05:26] most in. You know that's really interesting point because when I talk to a lot of people about

[00:05:32] Star Trek they really want to know like okay what do we need to have warp drive, what do we need

[00:05:38] to have a transporter, to have artificial gravity, to have that's what they think of is they think

[00:05:44] of the big technological advancements and that's what they want. They want those conveniences to be

[00:05:51] part of their modern daily life you know they they they want to have all the fun of alcohol but

[00:05:57] they want to be able to sober up and not have the dead brain cells in the hangover so so they want

[00:06:03] to scent the hall but at the same time that they think about things like that you know at the same

[00:06:09] time that we think about oh my like with all of the violence problems we had and with the

[00:06:17] policing issues that we have wouldn't it be wonderful if we had a phaser that we could set to

[00:06:22] stun and that we would not have these lethal encounters when non lethal force with this technological

[00:06:29] advance could do such a good job and I I agree with you that I guess the way I think about it is

[00:06:40] from Star Trek if the Vulcans are out there and watching us and just waiting for that moment where

[00:06:48] human civilization as an enterprise has advanced far enough that they can make first contact

[00:06:55] that we're ready for it that it won't violate the prime directive of interfering with the development of a

[00:07:03] let's call it a developing planet. How do we do that are we ready for it? I mean I I think it's

[00:07:14] really interesting to go back because I was lucky enough when I was born in the 70s I had all

[00:07:23] for my grandparents still alive when I was born and I got to know them three of them lived into old age

[00:07:31] so I got to spend a lot of time with them and this was the World War II generation after both

[00:07:37] my grandfather's fought in World War II most of most of the men of that era fought in World War II

[00:07:46] the women all went to work and worked in whatever industries were around to work in

[00:07:52] everyone pitched in to do that and we fought what at the time was basically like the greatest

[00:08:00] evil the world has ever seen. The the access powers, the culmination of imperialism, the you know

[00:08:07] the genocide of huge numbers of people just tens of millions of people and and we really tell

[00:08:15] this story to ourselves of the world came together to defeat evil like this people of enormously

[00:08:22] different ideologies all joined together and for a little while it looked like planet earth was

[00:08:30] sort of on the right track that you know despite our differences that we could understand each other

[00:08:37] that we could work together for a common goal and that it seemed like like nationalism might be

[00:08:45] on the way out where we could all sort of take a broader view you know we went to space we saw

[00:08:51] the earth from space where there are no national borders there are no colored lines on the map on

[00:08:58] of earth from space and so you know there was this hope that that this would just be a steady progression

[00:09:06] towards creating the future that we want and I think the the last few years and decades especially

[00:09:12] have shown us that this is not a slam dunk you know we we hear things all the time about how the cost

[00:09:20] of freedom is constant vigilance and the the price of freedom is that it's never more than one

[00:09:25] generation away from extinction and you know I think we have to remember that any road that we

[00:09:35] have walked down that we can always choose our own path and say this is a wrong road and it's time

[00:09:44] to turn around or it's time to take a detour it's time to change course because I'm with you I want

[00:09:51] to get to that utopian star trek future where where all of these basically blights on our society

[00:09:59] and civilization that we have I'd like to see them improve and I think I think maybe the best way

[00:10:08] to do this is you know I this is going to sound a little judgey of me but I'll own up to it

[00:10:14] is one of the ways that I judge people when I meet them is when at some point in a conversation

[00:10:24] it comes up that some person or some group of people that they are not a part of that group

[00:10:34] is facing some kind of oppression is facing some sort of social political economic

[00:10:43] difficulty in society it could be because the person's skin color or it could be because of their

[00:10:49] upbringing or it could be because of their country of origin or their religion or their gender

[00:10:55] sexual orientation any of these things and I do very much admit to when I see how any other person

[00:11:07] responds to a group that they are not a part of in distress that is very much how I judge them

[00:11:15] I look is is there compassion for what this person is facing even if it's something you don't face

[00:11:23] is there this willingness to do something on their behalf especially if they don't have the power

[00:11:33] to stand up for themselves the way that someone else could make a different standing up for them

[00:11:39] it's sort of that question that we deal with in Star Trek all the time of when do you get involved

[00:11:47] to what extent do you get involved and how do you get involved when when I first started watching

[00:11:55] next generation you know I was a young teenager and my favorite character at the time

[00:12:02] was Will Riker because he was a lot of things that I wasn't he was he was tall he was conventionally

[00:12:09] attractive he could be affable and sociable with a lot of people he and he was always like oh

[00:12:19] like if there's a fight going on between this victimized person or the culture and this

[00:12:24] a pressure a pressure culture he's always quick to jump in on behalf of the oppressed people

[00:12:32] and as I got older I started to like Will Riker less and less and I started to like Jean

[00:12:40] the card more and more because Picard would always have gone through well what are the consequences

[00:12:49] if I do this right if this Klingon vessel is getting attacked by this other Klingon vessel

[00:12:54] and our friends are on this Klingon vessel that's getting attacked what do we do yeah Riker

[00:12:59] Riker he'll he'll go open fire on the you know the enemies of our friends and and he'll do that

[00:13:07] Picard is like you know what I'm not going to start a civil war I'm not going to start a war

[00:13:14] of the federation with the Klingons when the Klingons are having their own civil war

[00:13:19] I'm going to be more circumspect about it and I think a lot of us when we

[00:13:28] come into a taxing situation when we especially when we're new to it we have that impulse that

[00:13:34] we want to act and we want to fix it and we don't take the time to listen and learn

[00:13:43] about the nuances of these perspectives that we ourselves don't possess so we're quick to judge

[00:13:50] and we're quick to anger and we're quick to make decisions about what's right and what's wrong

[00:13:55] without having all the necessary information and I think this idea of

[00:14:04] taking the time you need to draw the responsible conclusions to figure out what's going on before

[00:14:12] you act I feel like that is an art that we should be cultivating more and I think we've really

[00:14:21] seen that here on earth play out over the course of the pandemic that people are just

[00:14:27] livid over that anyone could have not known the right answer about what's best what all the evidence

[00:14:34] says all along we still don't know a whole lot of things there's so much we still need to learn

[00:14:42] because there are new things happening and new variants forming and the science is changing

[00:14:47] and growing and we're learning more of it this impatience that we have of why aren't all of our

[00:14:55] problems fixed right now they're just if you just put me in charge I could just fix all the

[00:15:00] problems I know so many of us just think that but but there has to be room to understand what are

[00:15:07] people's perspectives what is it stake for them because it's difficult to come to a solution where

[00:15:17] everyone doesn't just get something they want but everyone can look at this and say you know what

[00:15:23] this is what progress looks like this is this is us reckoning with the full gamut of whatever

[00:15:30] this situation is and finding ways to work together for the common good that this is not just

[00:15:38] what's best for me and the things I care about that this is this idea of what is good for

[00:15:46] civilization as a whole is also good for me and I sort of think about this in terms of

[00:15:53] geez isn't it isn't it better when everyone is educated when everyone is well fed when everyone

[00:16:00] doesn't have head pain because they have tooth infections isn't it great where everyone can see

[00:16:08] and everyone can hear and everyone you know these are the things that that I would like to think we

[00:16:14] could all agree are are goods in the world that that knowing things and increasing people's happiness

[00:16:21] and comfort levels and security is a good thing and that decreasing all of those levels of

[00:16:28] insecurity housing insecurity food insecurity health insecurity if we can decrease those this

[00:16:36] is like the rising tide that helps us not just as individuals but to recognize that we're all part

[00:16:44] of the same enterprise which is human civilization and that when we move the needle forward in one

[00:16:52] way for all of us it helps us all move forward together now those are some really great points

[00:16:59] so I want to ask you in this discussion do you think as our we've talked about how the technology

[00:17:07] is kind of advancing faster than we are socially towards a Star Trek future do you think our technology

[00:17:14] advances will help us at some point do you think that the balance will kind of that the degrees

[00:17:22] of separation between our technology advances and our social advances towards this future that we see

[00:17:27] in Star Trek do you think that gap will ever shrink do you think that's a good question right that's

[00:17:34] a good question I mean I think there's a point where everyone needs to realize that just because one

[00:17:42] person one person can't have all the good rights collectively as you're saying we need to collectively

[00:17:49] increase the positivity and health of everyone at the same time rather than just certain populations

[00:17:58] or certain groups but do you think that gap will ever decrease I mean that that is a good question

[00:18:06] the reason I say that's a good question is because it makes me think of you know it could go either

[00:18:12] way right the gap could not close the gap could even widen or the gap could close substantially and

[00:18:18] that all to me depends on who gets access to enjoy the fruits of these technologies you know we have

[00:18:31] a large number I think it's hundreds of thousands of kids a year go blind because of vitamin A deficiency

[00:18:38] we have basically the cure for this type of blindness which is to say we have genetically engineered a

[00:18:49] type of rice it's called golden rice that if these populations which rice is a huge part of their

[00:18:58] diet if they changed the rice they're using now for golden rice no one would have a vitamin A

[00:19:07] deficiency that you could just grow this other type of rice instead of this type of rice you would

[00:19:14] get all the vitamin A that you need and then hundreds of thousands of kids wouldn't go blind but a few

[00:19:21] years ago there was this enormous effort to grow golden rice and I guess I would call it an active

[00:19:30] ecoterrorism people were afraid that these genetically engineered golden rice organisms

[00:19:43] we're going to do all sorts of things that they don't do but that what they specifically thought it

[00:19:49] was going to do is an important what's important is that they destroyed it and insured that this

[00:19:55] blindness plague would continue for years and years because they burned all the golden rice

[00:20:02] because they were afraid of it now I'm not saying that everything that happens happens for a reason

[00:20:11] similar to that right there are all sorts of reasons why people don't get access to the latest

[00:20:17] technological advances to the latest developments there are a lot of fears over 5G for example

[00:20:25] that are wholly unfounded but I have a feeling that when people are like well I could either get the

[00:20:30] new phone that's 10 times faster than the old phone or I can sit on my old phone like it's a dial

[00:20:36] up modem I'm probably going to get the new phone and I'll discover that my 5G fears were unfounded

[00:20:44] not everything is that simple right we we still have countries like Ethiopia and Eritrea

[00:20:54] that you know at best I would say they have a ceasefire between them but I think 20% of the

[00:21:01] Eritrea in adults at any given time are an active military duty on the Eritrea Ethiopia border

[00:21:09] that's that's pretty big crisis you know we have you know we have a risk of an enormous number

[00:21:18] of people dying in a country like India right now as a result of the pandemic and still we have

[00:21:26] so much misinformation circling about that that people I guess are so invested in in terms of their

[00:21:34] identity that things be a certain way that they're not willing to change even when the evidence changes

[00:21:42] I don't know that there's a cure for that but I do know that if we can say you know what

[00:21:49] here are the benefits of what we've developed here are the benefits of what we've learned and

[00:21:54] here's all of these things and we are going to undertake a collective effort to make sure

[00:22:02] that everyone who can benefit from these advances reaps the benefits of those advances

[00:22:09] I think that's how we get there that's how we build you know the the Star Trek type future

[00:22:18] that we want is we say you know well this doesn't mean that you know healthcare is going to be

[00:22:26] really good for the people who can afford it and not for anyone else it doesn't mean like well

[00:22:31] you know the people who are the most successful they get to go to Mars they get to own all the land

[00:22:38] they get to profit every time you know someone else labor and that increases inequality

[00:22:46] you know I think if we can just make it a practice to put ourselves as best as we can into the shoes

[00:22:59] of people whose shoes we've never walked in if we can do what we can to empathize with the

[00:23:07] challenges they're facing the same way you would if a friend or family member had an illness

[00:23:14] physical or mental that you didn't have the same way it would if a if a child or a parent

[00:23:20] was facing a difficulty that that you never encountered in your life but that you but that you saw

[00:23:26] they were suffering like if we can care about one another and extend that compassion to one another

[00:23:33] I think that's that's how we get there you know I I don't want I don't want to get you know

[00:23:41] 20 vaccines to make sure I'm safe from coronavirus I do it I take all the vaccines give me

[00:23:47] phyza mederna johnson and johnson astros it give me all of them I'll take all the different

[00:23:52] immunities combined thank you but what we want is we want the people who need those vaccines to get

[00:24:02] them I still optimistically look towards a world where the diseases that can be eradicated

[00:24:11] through technology and good behavior I still believe in a world where we do it where we eradicate

[00:24:17] these diseases or at least we eradicate these diseases in humans I'm all for a world where

[00:24:24] by collectively working towards a common good a common social good a common health good a common

[00:24:32] economic good we can be that rising tide that lives all boats we can we can make that happen but

[00:24:39] but everything depends on that you know if if we develop all of the this great you know rocketry

[00:24:46] technology and we can take Elon Musk and you know his 1000 favorite multi-millionaires to Mars

[00:24:57] that's not really going to benefit humanity the same way that solving the carbon crisis would

[00:25:05] benefit humanity it's not going to benefit humanity the same way that ending world hunger would

[00:25:11] benefit humanity or for that matter eradicating corona viruses would benefit humanity so

[00:25:19] I think when you're asking about how do we do that how do we get there we have to start thinking

[00:25:28] not of ourselves as individuals that are separate from the whole of human society but as

[00:25:35] people who are inextricably tied to the human enterprise and if you know

[00:25:44] if if I succeed and you fail that means we both fail I think that mindset is something that

[00:25:55] we don't even just need to embrace it we have to understand that this is reality that if

[00:26:01] that equality for me and not for you is not equality exactly and that's that's something I think

[00:26:08] that is huge and right now we don't have that and I think that's going to be one of the key factors

[00:26:14] if almost not the key factor to getting to this idea of Star Trek outside of the technology we have

[00:26:23] to understand that just because I have something doesn't mean that it takes away from you and

[00:26:30] just because you have something doesn't mean it takes away from me but we need to be equal and we

[00:26:34] need to have this compassion and sympathy which is something I've been seeing lacking and

[00:26:44] one thing I think that really helps foster that is active listening and you would you'd said

[00:26:49] something earlier and I didn't want to pipe in but I feel like so many people listen but

[00:26:54] they listen to respond rather than to listen to understand and we're so reactionary at this point

[00:27:02] in time and we're selfish we all are some people are more so than others but I think collectively

[00:27:12] and globally so many people say well me me me I'm more important than anybody else I'm more

[00:27:20] important than anything else and until we reach a point where we understand that everybody has

[00:27:28] to grow together or no one grows together at all we're not going to get there even if the technology

[00:27:35] advances I think that gap will increase stay the same and only the people who can really afford to

[00:27:45] go out into space will go out into space and we'll still have this class system that we have in

[00:27:53] it's here in the US I'm definitely lower middle class that's for sure and I know that until we close

[00:28:01] those gaps we're not ever going to really get there which is really sad because we want to get there

[00:28:09] that's I mean yes Star Trek still has its problems but I think there's so much good right there

[00:28:15] that we can see and if other people could understand that if other people could see that

[00:28:22] hey if we all collectively rise together isn't that better than someone rising up higher than

[00:28:30] somebody else but there's so many motives in humans and so many people are not completely altruistic

[00:28:38] that I don't know if we'll ever get to that point unless some of these negative aspects

[00:28:44] people really don't focus on them and turn inward and look at themselves and say okay what am I doing

[00:28:50] that's not helpful what am I doing that's a negative thing what am I doing to keep others down

[00:28:56] it's not going to happen you know I like to a number of things that you said there I liked what

[00:29:02] you said about listening because there are a lot of people who listen in the sense that they're

[00:29:09] waiting to talk they have something they want to say and that's all they do is they sure you can

[00:29:14] say what you say but it's not like I'm paying attention to you and what you're saying I really just

[00:29:20] have my own point that I want to make I feel like this is really exemplified by the political

[00:29:26] discourse we have not just in the United States but around the world that people just have their

[00:29:32] own set of talking points and they harp on those and you know you see that people on Fox News versus

[00:29:39] people on MSNBC they're not even talking about the same issues they're not even in the same reality

[00:29:45] they're you know they're talking about whatever whatever it is they've decided the news should be

[00:29:53] but it isn't actually about the events that are occurring in the world and affecting people's lives

[00:30:00] and that's that's I think very detrimental because that's that's something that stokes divisiveness

[00:30:07] in us you know we can we can always do that we could say oh well we we we you and I we live in

[00:30:14] different states and we have different ethnicities and we have different you know the experiences maybe

[00:30:22] we have different education or economic backgrounds like we we could we could try to divide ourselves in

[00:30:27] all these different ways but we can also look at what we have in common we can also look at you

[00:30:34] know we're both human beings we live on earth at the same time we we see the world that has the

[00:30:43] same issues what can we do to help what can we do to help make things just a little bit better than

[00:30:53] they were before we came along onto the scene and I think I don't want to lambast self interest

[00:31:04] because I think it's important that we act in our own self interest I I'm a big fan of telling people

[00:31:12] and this is a lesson I think I had to learn that if you want other people to stand up for you

[00:31:19] you have to also be willing to stand up for yourself that you you are worth standing up for

[00:31:26] and by standing up for yourself you show other people that you are worth standing up for

[00:31:36] and I think I think that's an important lesson to learn so I'm not against self interest but like

[00:31:43] everything it's possible to have too much self interest it's possible to have self interest or

[00:31:50] ambition or whatever it is that that actively it actively harms the rest of society it actively

[00:32:02] harms those around you just like if I don't know if you have your family and you've got to get

[00:32:11] dinner for your family and you go out and you pick up dinner for your family and you eat everyone's

[00:32:16] dinner because you're hungry you haven't fed your family you did something in your own self

[00:32:24] interest that was to the detriment of everyone else and you know I say that and people think like oh

[00:32:30] well that's absurd no one would ever do that but but I feel like people do that every time they

[00:32:38] every time they choose to go out and blow their budget on alcohol instead of buying

[00:32:44] what you need in paying your bills I feel like people do that every time they you know they lie to

[00:32:51] their spouse about where they are and they just don't they don't tell them the truth because

[00:32:58] they're ashamed of it or they want to get away with something or whatever it is but you know I

[00:33:03] feel like there's always going to be that element to people that selfishness that here's

[00:33:11] what I want and I want to get it and I'm going to go get it regardless of who else is involved with

[00:33:16] it but I think that if we can recognize if we can even just say out loud to ourselves into each other

[00:33:26] that you know what things will get better for all of us if we collectively act in the best

[00:33:36] interest of all of us I might be afraid of getting a vaccine but if I go out and get the vaccine

[00:33:43] because it makes everyone safer then I should do it if you need to make a rule where you know what

[00:33:50] Ethan if you don't get that vaccine you you can't participate in these public activities uh

[00:33:56] you can't go to public school you can't send your kids to public school you can't go to the DMV

[00:34:03] because it's not a safe place to be you can like this is this is what we do we I'm still not a fan of

[00:34:12] telling people how they have to live because I'm not a fan of telling people there's one right way

[00:34:17] to do things but I at the same time I am a fan of saying you know what we don't like to force people

[00:34:25] to do things we've decided that that is like fascism you can't make people do things but you sure

[00:34:31] can give them incentives to do it and you sure can give them disincentives against not doing it

[00:34:38] yeah I mean we don't have a federal law that says you have to be 21 years old to drink in the united

[00:34:45] states but when I was in high school Louisiana was the last state where the drinking age was 18

[00:34:53] and uh I even knew some people who would make the long drive down there to get alcohol

[00:35:00] and drive back because they were allowed to do it I think it was when Clinton was president

[00:35:07] uh what he did was he tied highway funding federal highway funding to compliance with your states

[00:35:20] drinking age should be this um and Louisiana was like well we need highway money we we need to

[00:35:26] maintain the interstate infrastructure systems so we want that money will raise the drinking age

[00:35:33] to 21 that was it no one no one legally challenged that or anything I think if you

[00:35:40] if you want people to engage in the behavior you want them to engage in you need good leadership

[00:35:47] and that starts in a number of different places but it starts from people demanding

[00:35:55] that this is the type of leadership that we want you know we we are a representative democracy

[00:36:01] here we can we can choose who represents us it's it's very difficult to do that when you're up

[00:36:10] against you know large large sums of money and power and influence but um but I'm not ready to

[00:36:17] give up hope yet I think that when we think about you know all of the changes we have been able to

[00:36:26] affect all of the ways that our world has improved even even over my lifetime I remember you

[00:36:33] know what life was like in the early 1980s versus now 40 years later in the early 2020s

[00:36:41] I I think most of us have it pretty good in a lot of ways but I think we're also keenly aware

[00:36:50] of the ways we don't have it good and that people around us don't have it good and you know

[00:36:57] another thing you were saying I would just encourage people to be compassionate towards one another

[00:37:02] I I have a lot of negative interactions with people these days because someone will come into a

[00:37:10] situation and they will I don't know what's happened to them I don't know what their life has been

[00:37:17] like over the last year I don't know how many people they've lost I don't know how many illness

[00:37:21] is or injuries they've suffered I don't know what sort of mental health issues they're having

[00:37:27] I don't know what family difficulties they're having I don't know what financial difficulties

[00:37:32] they're having but I'm sure they're there I have some of those difficulties I'm sure you have

[00:37:38] some of those difficulties I'm sure most of us have some or all of those difficulties to some extent

[00:37:44] I think it goes so far to just recognize the humanity of other people to recognize that

[00:37:54] is everyone doing their best no but a lot of people are they're doing the best they can with

[00:37:59] the energy and the resources they have at their disposal it's not always enough it's not always

[00:38:05] adequate but this is what people have to work with and when it's not enough for them to cope with

[00:38:14] what needs to be coped with or to reckon with what needs to be reckoned with can we offer them

[00:38:23] compassion and support instead of lambasting them that they didn't do the thing we wanted

[00:38:31] from them and I think as soon as you start doing that as soon as you start viewing people

[00:38:39] as people with similar struggles and difficulties to your own with these human struggles and

[00:38:46] difficulties that they have it suddenly becomes much much harder I would say it even becomes a

[00:38:53] calling to treat them like they aren't worth every bit as much as you are yeah and I think that's

[00:39:02] the thing it's you know I I work a mental help and we meet our clients where they're at and I

[00:39:10] think that's the thing a lot of that's the other thing I think a lot of people need to understand

[00:39:14] is meeting others where they're at not where you are not where you expect them to be but where

[00:39:22] they're at and that lends you to being open to understanding and open to listen to where they're at

[00:39:31] and help in whatever way you can and so I think that's something that you know in all of this

[00:39:39] that's going to help us get there and that's missing in a lot of people and this understanding

[00:39:47] and saying okay I'll meet you where you are let me let me come down to you and that's okay

[00:39:54] it's okay to come down to somebody else's level it doesn't mean that you were there but it just

[00:39:59] means that's where you're meeting them and that's a big thing it's a big thing in recovery is meeting

[00:40:04] people where they're at and so gosh it's interesting to take a load of all this because there's so many

[00:40:11] ways that we are so far from getting to anywhere near this utopia of Star Trek and you know there's

[00:40:21] so many different steps to take to get there I think emotionally socially economically I mean

[00:40:28] you know money money is a big thing there's no money in Star Trek and how do we get to that point

[00:40:34] where money isn't a driving factor because I think that is a big thing in a lot of things that

[00:40:40] is keeping us from advancing and having that gap close in between the technology and everything else

[00:40:47] to get to this is because money is such a big thing you know you you mentioned oh this person has

[00:40:53] more money so they're going to get more influence politically but if we took that away and take

[00:41:00] that out of the equation maybe the person who should be who's going to help these advances that

[00:41:07] we need socially and economically maybe they would win maybe they would get into those positions you

[00:41:13] know I look at my state it's a very Republican state there's a few Democrats spattered here in

[00:41:20] there that I get elected but locally there's not even Democrats that run because there's no point

[00:41:28] for them to waste their money yeah yeah there are a lot of places a lot of particularly verbal areas

[00:41:34] and I know them where where the D stands for defeat if you have a D next to your name it's

[00:41:41] obviously like you don't have a chance I I always had thought that you know when I was young

[00:41:50] that you could run as anything and people would judge you based on your merits and you know of course

[00:41:59] that's an extremely naive attitude to have but it's just amazing to me how much weight we put behind

[00:42:13] our own opinions about things and once once we've decided what our opinions are so many of us

[00:42:24] are resistant to changing that that if we hear any evidence that appears to support our view

[00:42:31] we're gonna remember that and we're gonna take that in we're gonna use that to bolster what we think

[00:42:36] and if we hear anything that conflicts with what we think we're gonna find ways to discount it

[00:42:43] and poke holes in it and say like oh but this is an important and I think part of what needs to

[00:42:52] be this culture shift in making Star Trek's future closer to reality is we need to value the

[00:43:04] act of learning and changing your mind based on new evidence higher than being right all along or

[00:43:15] never having had to say I was wrong because we are wrong all the time I don't care who you are

[00:43:24] listening to this I don't care if you're Einstein I don't care if you're Elon Musk I don't care if

[00:43:29] you're my dad you are gonna be wrong sometimes you are wrong sometimes you do not have enough

[00:43:37] information to make an informed decision and then later that information becomes known or sometimes

[00:43:45] the information was always known but it wasn't known to you or sometimes um new evidence just got

[00:43:52] discovered or sometimes it got reinterpreted in this new context and now we realize well we thought

[00:43:58] it was this way but now it's the other way imagine being so stuck in your own thoughts

[00:44:05] that you know you were like oh look I thought if I mixed ammonia and bleach I'd get extra clean

[00:44:12] clothes but I learned if I mix ammonia and bleach I make a terrible noxious mess that can kill

[00:44:19] me and everyone in my house so what do I do well I can either say oh ammonia has good cleaning power

[00:44:28] and bleach has good cleaning power and I'll just make them call the fire department every two weeks

[00:44:33] when it's time to clean those things up or I can learn ooh I should never mix ammonia and bleach

[00:44:41] and I should teach everyone to never mix ammonia and bleach and there are other ways to get

[00:44:46] things clean that don't involve mixing ammonia and bleach don't mix ammonia and bleach listeners

[00:44:52] so I guess one thing I have to ask is I've got a kid in school and I like you I am a bit younger than

[00:45:02] you but I grew up in the 80s in the 90s and this deductive reasoning and this thinking for yourself

[00:45:09] I remember it was a big thing like write your own papers have your own thoughts and granted we didn't

[00:45:15] really have the internet I mean I did all my research papers based off going to the library

[00:45:20] in the card catalog and looking up things and you know the Britannica psychopathic Britannica you know

[00:45:27] so do you think that I'm a big fan of education I'm a big fan of extending your education

[00:45:36] getting some college even if it's not your thing doing something trade school something but

[00:45:43] this deductive reasoning and really critical thinking do you feel that that has kind of declined

[00:45:51] with people in general or certain generations just aren't taking a look at things because

[00:45:59] that is a big thing if we cannot say here's Apple and here's an orange and make those conclusions

[00:46:07] based off of which one is going to be the better thing which has the consequences that are going

[00:46:12] to be better for me versus all these negative ones do you think that's something that is lacking

[00:46:19] that could lend us to get to this place where we could get to Star Trek if people can't critically

[00:46:26] think about different topics and make a choice off of that it's it's a very tough thing because

[00:46:35] I don't I don't think I have this attitude that I think things were better 20 40 60 years ago

[00:46:45] and they're worse now no yeah just think that people are kind of the same as how they've always been

[00:46:53] and you know instead of kings or nobles we have billionaires and instead of you know

[00:47:01] quigs and democratic republicans we have democrats and republicans but we you know all

[00:47:09] most things haven't really changed most people and we do this too I do this too we take

[00:47:15] intellectual shortcuts we don't have the time or energy to examine everything in glory detail

[00:47:23] but the big thing that I would like to see return is this valuation rather than a devaluation

[00:47:35] of expertise you you asked me to be on your podcast because like oh well Ethan's like an expert

[00:47:42] on Star Trek technology and he has a PhD in astrophysics and he wrote that book that I like and

[00:47:47] you know and yeah I have those things I have those areas where I'm an expert in that but even in

[00:47:55] those fields I have to be learning new things you know I I was talking to someone just a few days ago

[00:48:03] about how well when the Milky Way and Andromeda merge what type of galaxy are we gonna wind up with

[00:48:09] in 20 years ago she wrote a paper telling everyone oh it's gonna make an elliptical galaxy and of

[00:48:15] course it will and I asked her about it and she's like it's very unlikely we're gonna make an

[00:48:21] elliptical galaxy actually we're probably going to be some sort of distorted spiral that'll

[00:48:28] probably settle down and still have a disk and still have arms and still have gas and it won't

[00:48:32] be an elliptical after all what's changed well we learn more things we learn more information

[00:48:38] we made new observations we took new measurements we improved our simulations and we learned

[00:48:46] some things that were counter to what we expected you need an expert to do that you can't know that

[00:48:55] without the expertise so if you don't have the expertise you could go do your homework

[00:49:02] and you could find out what the majority of experts on the bleeding edge of the field are saying

[00:49:08] now but that's a lot of hard work especially if you don't have that expertise it's much much easier

[00:49:16] to say okay who are the experts who should I ask where should I go to get this information

[00:49:22] i'm gonna do as much homework as I can you know just like if I had a medical problem I'd want to

[00:49:27] do all the homework I could on it but when I go to the doctor and the doctor sends me to the

[00:49:33] specialist and I go to the specialist I don't want to sit there and tell the specialist what I

[00:49:38] learned by searching this and by reading PubMed and no I want to I want to tell this expert my experience

[00:49:47] in my body and I want them to tell me what I should be doing about it and why I want them to

[00:49:56] synthesize something together for me to the best of their abilities because I know that what

[00:50:03] they've trained themselves to do the hard work they put in all those years of study that's not worth

[00:50:10] nothing that's not just well my opinion is just as good as your facts or your knowledge no I don't

[00:50:17] go to the doctor and tell them how to be a medical doctor I don't go to the mechanic and tell

[00:50:22] them how to fix my car I don't go to I don't go to a world class painter and pull out my fingers

[00:50:29] and say look I know how to paint too I I don't do that the same way I don't really appreciate it

[00:50:35] when you know someone without a degree in physics comes to me and tells me like oh do you want to hear

[00:50:40] my theory of the universe do you want me to tell you why Einstein is wrong and Heisenberg is wrong

[00:50:46] in a no like I bet you don't I bet you don't want you to tell me that not because you don't have

[00:50:52] interesting thoughts but because there probably isn't something that has a merited value to it

[00:51:01] there you probably don't have something that I or no one else has ever thought of before

[00:51:09] that is just brilliant and novel it's probably not the case and it's probably not the case

[00:51:16] oh geez like we have lots of flaws as humans in our thinking like we are way more likely to believe

[00:51:25] a fantastic and unlikely explanation than just a small little lie like if I told you that oh you

[00:51:36] know that they they've genetically engineered green cows now you're like what I'm like yeah

[00:51:42] yeah they basically took a plant and they spliced its genes into a cow and there are now chloroplasts

[00:51:51] in cow cells they can absorb sunlight and they can photosynthesize some of their energy

[00:51:58] and when they eat grass that this actually helps them because it increases the green color so

[00:52:03] they're chloroplast become more active I mean doesn't this sound great Ethan's obviously lying

[00:52:10] like he's got to be lying and they genetically engineered a cat to glow in the dark but that's

[00:52:16] not the same no I am lying I did make that one up but that's the sort of story that if I told it

[00:52:22] convincingly enough there would be some people who said wow really just like 25 years ago I remember

[00:52:30] someone telling me that well you know there's this DNA evidence in the case but I think that means

[00:52:37] OJ's son did it that his son wanted to get his father out of the marriage and he went murdered

[00:52:44] his his father's ex-wife and her new lover and that's what uh and that's what really happened

[00:52:51] that OJ didn't kill it but he took the fall to cover up for his son and I you know and I

[00:52:57] listen to this and I'm like this person first off doesn't know how DNA works but second off even

[00:53:03] if they did know how DNA works it was such a compelling lie to them where they felt these pieces

[00:53:11] were sliding into place um a lot of people just can't accept that no one's in control of what's

[00:53:19] going on in the world um that that there is no puppet master behind the strings that the world

[00:53:26] is just a violent and chaotic place where people are lashing out and doing things illogically

[00:53:33] people do not always act rationally and I think we need to we need to accept that and and we need

[00:53:42] to not reject people because they have behaved or are behaving irrationally but we need to show them

[00:53:52] that there is a path towards doing it right and you need to model that behavior of here's how you

[00:54:01] do it right and like you said earlier uh that starts with treating them with respect and compassion

[00:54:08] and showing them that regardless of what your differences are or how your differences manifest

[00:54:16] that we can work together to build a better life a better community a better world for all of us to

[00:54:25] live in no I definitely agree I think this is something that do you think it would be better started

[00:54:33] uh locally like small little communities and have it spread or does it need to start larger than that

[00:54:41] you know this idea of treating people with compassion and understanding where they're coming from

[00:54:47] and creating these disparities decreasing these disparities between people how do we how do we do that

[00:54:56] you know I I think there are positives towards any approach and so I think if you can get

[00:55:08] one person to act in a positive way regardless of what that way is you've done something good

[00:55:14] but this is the sort of thing where I think you know whether I talk about the people in your little

[00:55:21] town in Idaho or whether I talked about like we spoke about earlier about the people living in

[00:55:27] Eritrea like I think it's very important to recognize the humanity and one another even in those of

[00:55:37] us who look different or believe different than we ourselves do and I think it's important

[00:55:45] to put your effort where you will feel like it isn't being wasted if you feel you

[00:55:56] where you can make a difference is that the national or international level put your efforts there

[00:56:03] if you feel like where you can make a difference is at your local level put your efforts there none

[00:56:09] of it is bad this is this is something I used to struggle with a lot when I was younger is like

[00:56:15] there are all these different causes that I feel are positive and that I'm passionate about and I

[00:56:20] don't have the time or energy or money to further most of them honestly I can really only pick a

[00:56:29] small number of things where I can make a difference the important thing is to do them whatever they are

[00:56:36] if Bill Gates is passionate about ending illnesses and creating vaccines and eradicating diseases

[00:56:48] yeah I mean if I had Bill Gates money would that be the number one thing I would focus on I don't know

[00:56:53] I doubt it but I'm not going to say Bill Gates is a bad person because he's spending his money

[00:57:02] on doing a good thing in the world that isn't the thing I would choose we I think it's very important

[00:57:12] that we honor the efforts that we spend trying to improve the world around us I don't think everyone

[00:57:23] even needs to be altruistic you just need to do something that you recognize is positive and

[00:57:33] is going to impact others positively where you are or where you're not like just that it's going

[00:57:40] to positively impact others that's something all of us can do we can't all do it to the extent

[00:57:46] we would like we can't all do it you know at the level we would like or with the intensity we

[00:57:52] would like but anytime you do something good especially if it's something good that is going to

[00:57:59] impact others or the natural world you know I think even if it only helps one person you can

[00:58:08] know you did something good helping even one person I don't know what the best solution is because

[00:58:15] this is a this is too big a problem for one person to solve it's probably too big a problem for

[00:58:21] one generation of people to solve but if we can build a world where people are freer from oppression

[00:58:32] and suffering and disease and illness and crime and violence and war and food insecurity and all

[00:58:41] of these other things that are just blights on our existence here I think we should always always

[00:58:48] celebrate that progress no matter how small it is it doesn't mean you should rest on your laurels

[00:58:54] of that progress but it's important to take time out to appreciate even the small steps that move

[00:59:01] things forward yeah definitely and in this discussion you know I was sitting here thinking about as

[00:59:06] you're talking it's really that Star Trek basically made it so every single person had their

[00:59:15] base needs those maslow's hierarchy of needs those ones that are super important for you to

[00:59:22] advance in anything else to move beyond yourself are met their physical needs are met

[00:59:30] and their psychological needs are met because no one's worried so much about being

[00:59:36] feeling insecure unsafe because of you know war is gone I mean I'm not saying conflict is gone

[00:59:43] in Star Trek they're still conflict and we didn't see earth a lot in Star Trek I mean they come

[00:59:49] and they visit they go to Starfleet or the Dacer Minstitute but they don't see earth but we can

[00:59:55] extrapolate that that is not an issue anymore once we get past what we see in deep space nine with

[01:00:01] the bell riots and you know the third world war and that kind of stuff but it's very much that

[01:00:07] these base needs maslow's hierarchy of needs are met and we know now that even if someone has those

[01:00:16] met they can grow and flourish and thrive well beyond what they thought their expectations of

[01:00:25] themselves were but until those base needs are met which is housing food it's illness it's

[01:00:33] economics once those are taken care of and filled secure and filled people thrive and grow so I think

[01:00:41] that's something that we're gonna have to get to not just locally where we live in our towns and

[01:00:49] our counties states countries globally we have to get to this place where everyone's base needs

[01:01:00] are met and kept so that people can flourish and thrive and then maybe that gap would close a little bit

[01:01:07] I think that's an outstanding plan I mean if we realized how little we would actually have

[01:01:16] to invest in global infrastructure in order to make sure everyone has enough food make sure

[01:01:24] everyone has enough water make sure everyone has enough medicine make sure like has the right medicine

[01:01:33] you know these these are basic basic needs and they are needs that a lot of people do not have met

[01:01:42] both in this country and also across the world but at the same time I believe a greater

[01:01:50] percentage of people are having those needs met and there's still hundreds of millions if not

[01:01:57] billions of people who don't have those needs met and I don't mean to like marginalize their plight

[01:02:04] but if the goal is to make sure everyone has those needs met then as we progress towards that goal

[01:02:15] we should learn lessons of what works what's effective what's reaching these people and what

[01:02:22] wherever things falling through the cracks who still isn't being served and how do we get there because

[01:02:28] you're right you know one of the ways this was really brought home for me is my first job out of college

[01:02:35] I was a public school teacher and I had a number of kids in that school who could not focus in

[01:02:43] class just would not pay attention would not focus because some of their basic needs were not

[01:02:51] being met I had one kid who was in excruciating pain all day because the kid had never been to

[01:02:59] the dentist and the kid had a toothache and you cannot expect to pay attention in school if you are

[01:03:10] in constant unmanaged pain you know and so this is the sort of thing that honestly if you would spend

[01:03:17] like two or three hundred dollars to get that kid's tooth problem fixed and just get them

[01:03:23] toothbrushes and toothpaste and dental floss and some really basic things that kid would have a

[01:03:30] chance in a way that they didn't have a chance because they didn't know what it was like to go

[01:03:35] through life without that excruciating pain and everything they did it's we have this attitude

[01:03:43] that I see play out as someone who is experiencing an unfairness will complain this isn't fair

[01:03:54] and the response that I overwhelmingly hear that person receive is well life's not fair

[01:04:01] and I don't look at that as a solution like that's a statement of fact but it also doesn't

[01:04:09] do anything towards solving the problem what would go a huge way towards solving that problem

[01:04:16] is asking the person who's experiencing the unfairness well what can we do to make it fair

[01:04:25] what can we do to increase the level of fairness for other people who are coming up and facing

[01:04:33] the same adversities if we can start to conceptualize you know we see these problems and yep like

[01:04:41] if we start to ask what can we do about it what can we effectively do about it how do we do that

[01:04:47] right that that to me speaks to the difference between something being a dream which is what I would

[01:04:53] currently say is having that utopian star trick future be that that is it's a dream if we can

[01:05:00] transform that dream into a goal the only thing that separates a dream from a goal is steps

[01:05:08] is plans and steps to make that happen so I think when you're like well what can we do in our

[01:05:13] local communities is take a step identify something good you can do and take a step what can we do

[01:05:19] in the national discourse take a step what can we do showing compassion to others including those

[01:05:25] who aren't being compassionate in the first place that can be a big deal that can be a very big deal

[01:05:32] so you know it's kind of funny that we've had this whole conversation and I feel like

[01:05:38] of all the podcasts I've been on recently I probably talked less science on this one

[01:05:43] than than any others but I think that that it really is sort of interesting to approach this

[01:05:48] from a humanity perspective because a big way we get to where we want to be as a society is to

[01:05:56] recognize the value and humanity inherent in each and every one of us then when we start looking

[01:06:02] at this is this is not a this is not an ethan enterprise or a hailey enterprise or a me and my

[01:06:09] family or me in my town or me in my state or me in my nation that this is this is the human enterprise

[01:06:16] that this is the relationship between our species our planet and our universe the stakes seem

[01:06:25] so much larger than if it's just us so I think I think it's important to not lose that sense of

[01:06:36] largeness to not lose that sense of awe and wonder and to remember how short an amount of time

[01:06:45] we're all here for and that for me really makes clear how important it is to do good with the time

[01:06:55] that we have all over here no I I would agree with you thank you Ethan and I appreciate that this

[01:07:02] has been such a really fun discussion like I said this this isn't just about the hard science

[01:07:08] this this podcast is about the soft sciences because those are just as important in Star Trek

[01:07:15] even though we don't always see them a lot as the hard science as the technology

[01:07:21] because we have to have both we have to have the technology to get us there but if we don't advance

[01:07:28] ourselves socially economically emotionally then we'll never get there because we will be too

[01:07:36] focused on the chaos around us and not fixing anything that's broken to really be able to use

[01:07:45] that technology beyond the billionaires who can oh whatever I'm just going to go kind of thing

[01:07:51] because I can and that doesn't take us globally anywhere that just just leaves us down more path

[01:07:59] destruction where we won't ever get there which would be really sad in my opinion I mean I

[01:08:06] obviously agree with you but I think Star Trek did a wonderful job of this you know episodes

[01:08:12] of Star Trek are very very rarely focused on oh like if only data could solve this second-order

[01:08:18] partial differential equation then we can figure out how to like you know turn the thermocouples

[01:08:25] into auxiliary power and get the dilithium crystals working again and then we can go fast and get

[01:08:31] out of here I said no battle really it's not really how you know what Star Trek is all about like

[01:08:38] someone who's maybe not a fan of Star Trek might say that that's what Star Trek is about but

[01:08:43] Star Trek is much more about like geez I'm in this difficult situation and these people have a

[01:08:49] legitimate issue that they have you know an injustice and this other competing thing has this

[01:08:56] other injustice and I'm caught in the middle and none of it is fair to me but I have to make a decision

[01:09:03] on what course of action do we take and what outcome are we shooting for and then when chaos

[01:09:09] happens how do we respond to that and you know I think it really makes it clear that your finest

[01:09:19] hour isn't necessarily about when you do your best work or when you make the best decision your

[01:09:26] finest hour is about when you don't leave anyone behind and I think that's a big important lesson

[01:09:38] from Star Trek that even when someone is flawed their life still has value.

[01:09:49] Definitely well Ethan this has been a fun discussion and I appreciate you coming on and

[01:09:55] having this with me I've really enjoyed it I know that you and I have talked about the technology

[01:10:01] before so this was a really nice discussion from the softer side so where can our listeners find you

[01:10:09] oh sure so I'm on I'm on Twitter Facebook social media and and websites as starts with a bang if

[01:10:18] you want to find out more about me check out my website startswithabang.com where it has links

[01:10:25] to everything I'm doing and all about me and what I do as far as astrophysics science communication

[01:10:31] books videos and more and I will have to say I thoroughly enjoy listening to your podcast so

[01:10:38] listeners you should check it out because there's some great discussions over there about a lot

[01:10:44] of the hard science and space because who doesn't love space and Star Trek they go hand in hand

[01:10:51] thank you so much and I hope you have wonderful evening

[01:10:57] this is Haley signing off from the astrophysics lab thank you for stepping aboard science station

[01:11:02] 2 and thank you to five year mission for the use of their music in this episode

[01:11:08] music for science station two is provided by five year mission they're writing an original song

[01:11:14] for each episode of Star Trek here more of their music at fiveyearmission.net

[01:11:19] science station two is a production of coconut media works executive producers Bill Smith and Dan

[01:11:24] Davidson for more great Star Trek discussion discover the other shows of the Trek Geeks podcast

[01:11:30] network at trekgeeks.com or find us an Apple podcast Spotify or your favorite podcast app

[01:11:41] you

[01:11:53] cook it up